Scoop draw from concealment?

This is a discussion on Scoop draw from concealment? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've recently finished reading Bill Jordan's book, and was intrigued by his description (and freeze frames) of the scoop draw. The mechanics seem rather straightforward ...

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Thread: Scoop draw from concealment?

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    Member Array NightOwl76's Avatar
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    Scoop draw from concealment?

    I've recently finished reading Bill Jordan's book, and was intrigued by his description (and freeze frames) of the scoop draw. The mechanics seem rather straightforward in an open carry situation, or even concealed with a medium weight or heavier garment on top and a good OWB holster worn at around 3 o'clock and a gun with a full grip. However, it gets complicated when I try to make it work with my usual carry method (untucked button shirt on top, IWB holster at 3:30-4). I know we have several people here who practice the scoop draw, and I was wondering if I could get any input on the following:

    1. It's hard to brush a very light garment (such as a shirt) aside with the side of my hand. It seems more reliable to initiate the motion with my fingertips and rotate my hand downwards as I move it, rather than having it pointing down the entire time. Is this about right?

    2. Can the scoop draw be executed with a covering garment that's closed up front and needs to be raised rather than swept aside? If so, what's the motion like?

    3. IWB's really throwing me for a loop, because my fingertips get caught on the belt. Any hints on how to solve that?

    4. I'd also appreciate any hints on scoop drawing a gun without a full grip (such as a Glock 26 or any of the other two-finger-grip pistols out there). Jordan's description employs the ring and little fingers initially, and only involves the middle finger after the gun's started moving. That seems awfully risky when you can't use your pinky and have to start out with a single finger on the gun.

    5. Lastly, for obvious reasons having the gun anywhere but at 3 o'clock messes up the draw as you initiate it in the wrong direction. Any hints on how to mitigate this shortcoming, or am I going to have to learn to carry at 3? ;)

    I'm going to keep trying to figure these issues out, but any tips that could shorten my learning curve are appreciated.

    Thanks!
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    I train others in the scoop draw in the threat focused courses. Yes, you can use this method with a closed front or open front garment. I've demo'd it in courses with both on [ t shirt untucked under an open front jacket ]. The clearing method I use and extend to others uses only the shooting hand. It's doable, students don't have much of any problem performing it once shown.

    Students use that draw with an fbi canted holster at 4:30 very proficiently [ or it's counter position if left handed ]. Actually a bit surprised when I saw the thread title.
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    Member Array NightOwl76's Avatar
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    Thanks, looks like I just need more practice.

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    It works well, but does take some practice (as do all things SD) in clearing the garment. AzQKr has put up some pics on another forum that shows how the thumb pins the shirt above the weapon as the fingers pull the weapon up out of the holster.
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    Member Array NightOwl76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaikane0812 View Post
    It works well, but does take some practice (as do all things SD) in clearing the garment. AzQKr has put up some pics on another forum that shows how the thumb pins the shirt above the weapon as the fingers pull the weapon up out of the holster.
    Would you happen to have a link?
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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Can we get those pix replicated here? or would someone please direct me to the other Forum? Thanks!
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    I'll throw them up here shortly, let me go find them.
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    Here ya go, I don't have that gut now
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Here ya go, I don't have that gut now
    I see the difference, you scoop counterclockwise. Jordan scooped clockwise, his hand sweeping the garment under rather than over the gun. Your approach seems to solve several of my problems, thanks. :) Time for a lot more dry practice...
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightOwl76 View Post
    I see the difference, you scoop counterclockwise. Jordan scooped clockwise, his hand sweeping the garment under rather than over the gun. Your approach seems to solve several of my problems, thanks. :) Time for a lot more dry practice...
    Yes, you have to adapt with a cover garment, where Jordan was from open carry. In the open carry, the hand coming up from the waist just scoops the gun with the middle/ring and pinky fingers on it's way by. Students get to 1 second or less draw stokes with this under a cover garment to first shot in short order.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Don't know if this will help anyone or not. Almost did not post.

    Draw done from AIWB, I tried to slow it down but if I slowed to much it didn't flow. Does not show much of what hands are doing.

    Two handed draw, the right hand is moving in from behind and up catching the gun as it passes.

    One handed draw, movement is a 2 circle move 1st circle puts hand under the shirt, hand then moves down again thumb anchors on top of slide as rest of hand rotates around coming back up picking up gun.

    Hope it helps someone.

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    Looking good Bill.
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    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    I may be in the minority here, but i don't think you should practice quick draw techniques from concealment.

    If you need quick draw from concealment you are already WAY behind. You would be much better off focusing on other skills that allow you to manage the threats more effectively. I think you are much better off establishing a shooting grip on the gun before you clear leather (or kydex).
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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Thanks, Bill MO and AzQkr, for your pictures and video. They were of quite a bit of help.



    ----

    40Bob, I definitely agree with you in your take of "if needing the quick-draw from concealment, then we're WAY behind on the power-curve" and that yes, other threat mitigation skills are likely to be necessary if and when this scenario comes to pass - I also see it from another angle: that while we would like to dictate the terms of the engagement, sometimes, even though we may have tried our best otherwise, as everyday law-abiding civilians going about our everyday lives, we will be caught in a reactionary mode.

    While I also agree with you in that at such times being able to retain the weapon can well be of critical importance, I also cannot discount the need for speed.

    Certainly, ideally, we're proactive - starting with avoiding bad places with bad people at bad times as well as good situational awareness - and I think we all take steps to be as proactive as we can about our personal safety; but I also understand that there might well be times when I will start from behind the 8-ball.

    In such instances, I want to have my cake and eat it, too. I want to know that I can retain the weapon, sure: but I also wanted it pointed at the threat as fast as possible.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    I may be in the minority here, but i don't think you should practice quick draw techniques from concealment.

    If you need quick draw from concealment you are already WAY behind. You would be much better off focusing on other skills that allow you to manage the threats more effectively. I think you are much better off establishing a shooting grip on the gun before you clear leather (or kydex).
    I agree...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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