Unarmed Defense (Krav Maga)

This is a discussion on Unarmed Defense (Krav Maga) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I found this interesting. If anyone understands real world dangers it's the Israelis (I watched this and thought Oh to be twenty years younger!) But ...

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Thread: Unarmed Defense (Krav Maga)

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Kennydale's Avatar
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    Unarmed Defense (Krav Maga)

    I found this interesting. If anyone understands real world dangers it's the Israelis (I watched this and thought Oh to be twenty years younger!)

    But i see the validity in practicing something like this.

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  3. #2
    AOK
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    Gun disarms are a funny thing. You see videos like these all over the internet, however against a realistic resisting opponent it's never as pretty and by the numbers as you see here. There will be movement, bumping, tripping, jerking, and much much more. It's important to learn a variety of ways to dislodge a gun from someone's grip. You have no idea what position you may end up in when you can break the gun away. On the flip side it's just as important if not more important to know how to retain your firearms in these situations.

    Regardless, I always enjoy watching other approaches to disarms. While there are some things to like in this specific disarm, there are also some red flags. Just like any DVD or video we watch online, viewer beware.
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    Member Array AmmoFan01's Avatar
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    I have been a martial arts practitioner and trainer for several years. It's cool to watch different techniques but it's not the same as a real life situation because the students let the instructor win. As AOK said in the above post, any situation involving a gun or knife can turn very ugly very fast.
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    Yeah, I'll say this about it. If you're dumb enough to hold a gun to someone's head at that distance, you deserve to be disarmed. In reality, gun disarms work when the person holding the gun is a dimwit, otherwise gun>kung fu.
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    Senior Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    i took five years of Krav Maga. one thing i;ll never forget is this point, you can choose to try a disarm, or let the guy with the gun order you around, but if they tell you to get on your knees or lay on the ground, chances are you're about to be executed. die, fight and die, or fight and live.

    yikes!

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    I thought it was a pretty good disarm.
    He is right on the money about the bad guy trying to pull back--which is why built in forward movement on the disarm is mandatory.
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    I will re-up and go over to defend them........... though I am a different animal...... but go with what you know!
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    There was a martial arts competition I was watching on TV many years back, they had this guy fighting multiple opponents, knifes, sticks, bats, you name it. All of a sudden a guy with pulls a gun, the guy stops fighting and hands him his wallet, was the most realistic reaction I had ever seen. Was a great demonstration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Yeah, I'll say this about it. If you're dumb enough to hold a gun to someone's head at that distance, you deserve to be disarmed. In reality, gun disarms work when the person holding the gun is a dimwit, otherwise gun>kung fu.
    Luckily lots of BG's are dimwits and see that kind of crap on TV so think that's the preferred method . On the idiot box you just either wave it around , like a magic wand or put it right in the face and the world is yours!

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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Yeah, I'll say this about it. If you're dumb enough to hold a gun to someone's head at that distance, you deserve to be disarmed.
    Guns are a distance weapon. The only reason to put it in someone's face like that is for intimidation, but this is what they teach on TV and in the movies, so I am sure that's what the bangers do.
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    Senior Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    What do we know about boxing and having a lay-off. We know that reflexes are diminished and skills decline -even- among highly skilled youthful athletes. It's called 'ring rust'.

    Thus, in a skill oriented defensive movement like the one depicted, your skill, timing and reflexes will decline when you stop training it daily. Can you practice this enough, can you continue to practice it so you stay effective?

    I'd also want to stress test this by doing it with an airsoft gun or even using simmunition and some eye protection to be sure you can get the timing down, having the opponent pull the trigger.

    Another thing to consider is that you may have been jerked around, beat up, hands bloodied prior to this presentation of the gun to your head. Can you rely on it when at 70-80% function?

    Obviously, if you never train anything you have no skills. How likely is it to be in this exact situation? These are all important questions.

    Finally, I'm not so sure about the need for doing it on one leg (groin kick). If you look closely, you're too far away to hit the target.

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    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    He is right on the money about the bad guy trying to pull back--which is why built in forward movement on the disarm is mandatory.
    There is a very good chance a natural flinch reaction would be to pull back. I also prefer forward movement for the disarm. It's very possible during the redirect/control phase you aren't able to get get a firm grasp on the gun. If the threat continues to try and move back after your failed gun grab your LIKELY best chance is to continue to aggress him by grabbing the gun or wrist. I must add, to me it's not just about moving forward in general. I like the forward movement where you step into a nice balanced and athletic fighting stance where I can utilize good footwork and body control.
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    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I'd also want to stress test this by doing it with an airsoft gun or even using simmunition and some eye protection to be sure you can get the timing down, having the opponent pull the trigger.

    Another thing to consider is that you may have been jerked around, beat up, hands bloodied prior to this presentation of the gun to your head. Can you rely on it when at 70-80% function?

    Obviously, if you never train anything you have no skills. How likely is it to be in this exact situation? These are all important questions.

    Finally, I'm not so sure about the need for doing it on one leg (groin kick). If you look closely, you're too far away to hit the target.
    I couldn't agree more, these things need to be put to the test. I've learned a variety of disarms from a few different KM instructors. Some of the techniques I discovered were not the approach I'd take in a real life or death scenario. However, I would have never discovered the shortcomings of said techniques if I didn't test then in a realistic environment to a failure point. They sure looked pretty by the numbers in a class though!

    On your last sentence, I'm generally not a huge fan of kicks either for those who don't train. I have seen a lot of untrained students in class become VERY off balanced from attempting kicks. Sometimes there is to much space between them and the assailant when they throw out the kick and the resistance isn't there, sometime the assailant has a responds of moving back so the resistance isn't there, and more. Regardless of the results of your kick you need to be able to come down well balanced and fighting. Most untrained can't do this from what I've seen. With that said, after you redirect and control the firearm, you may very well need to use some softening techniques and strikes to get the gun.

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    Senior Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    What do we know about boxing and having a lay-off. We know that reflexes are diminished and skills decline -even- among highly skilled youthful athletes. It's called 'ring rust'.

    Thus, in a skill oriented defensive movement like the one depicted, your skill, timing and reflexes will decline when you stop training it daily. Can you practice this enough, can you continue to practice it so you stay effective?
    so are you suggesting; "just hurry up and die?" i haven't been training a lot in the last few years, i am definitely "rusty", and if a guy wants my wallet, he can have it, but if a guy holds a gun to my head, and orders my wife into a car, you can be sure i will fight, regardless of my condition, and i have enough KM training, have done this stuff enough, against a "banger", yeah i'd give myself fair odds of pulling it off. but ain't gonna "give up and die" cuz i'm rusty, or maybe i'm missing your point?

    I'd also want to stress test this by doing it with an airsoft gun or even using simmunition and some eye protection to be sure you can get the timing down, having the opponent pull the trigger.
    isn't that why you should practice, practice, practice ALL forms of combat?- BTW- in my KM class we ALWAYS did these with loaded airsoft guns, from beginner to instructor eval's.

    Another thing to consider is that you may have been jerked around, beat up, hands bloodied prior to this presentation of the gun to your head. Can you rely on it when at 70-80% function?
    absolutely true, but again, what? give up?

    Obviously, if you never train anything you have no skills. How likely is it to be in this exact situation? These are all important questions.
    again, practice...

    Finally, I'm not so sure about the need for doing it on one leg (groin kick). If you look closely, you're too far away to hit the target.
    so you've managed to take the gun away from him, sloppy or perfectly executed doesn't matter, then what your gonna stand there and stare? i'm small, light, and have always been good at kicks, i have good balance, heck yeah i like groin kicks, if the distance opens it may become a front stomp kick, or MORE distance a side leg kick, if the distance CLOSES it's a head-butt or knee or elbow

    again, practice ALL variations.

    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    I couldn't agree more, these things need to be put to the test. I've learned a variety of disarms from a few different KM instructors. Some of the techniques I discovered were not the approach I'd take in a real life or death scenario. However, I would have never discovered the shortcomings of said techniques if I didn't test then in a realistic environment to a failure point. They sure looked pretty by the numbers in a class though!

    On your last sentence, I'm generally not a huge fan of kicks either for those who don't train. I have seen a lot of untrained students in class become VERY off balanced from attempting kicks. Sometimes there is to much space between them and the assailant when they throw out the kick and the resistance isn't there, sometime the assailant has a responds of moving back so the resistance isn't there, and more. Regardless of the results of your kick you need to be able to come down well balanced and fighting. Most untrained can't do this from what I've seen. With that said, after you redirect and control the firearm, you may very well need to use some softening techniques and strikes to get the gun.
    isn't this all just saying you have to practice for every imaginable scenario? just like practicing a drawstroke moving and shooting to your strong side with the BG at 12 o clock is great, but if it's the ONLY thing you do....?
    hand-to-hand is no different, even Bruce Lee said, "keep what works, reject the rest"
    everyone's body is different, we will all prefer subtle differences. but as you said, you won't find those subtle differences unless you explore all the options.

    to me all hand-to-hand comes to this:
    i KNOW EXACTLY what it takes to kick my butt. i have been stuffed in a corner and mauled by state champions, and some pretty serious LEO and MIL guys, i ain't as tough as any of em. and i know a LOT of guys out there can hand me my butt. quite frankly, i kind of like getting beat up, nothing makes me feel alive like the feeling of getting thrashed. and i know the average loser DOES NOT have what it takes to kick my butt. get lucky, sure, multiple losers, sure, surprise me with a pool stick to the knoggin', sure. but in almost a decade of various MA training, i've done enough to know exactly what i can and can't do. i am also aware of my "degradation" which "fancy" stuff i would no longer try because of it, and that if in a dangerous situation i would use even "nastier" stuff becuase my stamina isn't what it used to be.

    ok, off my soap box, sorry for the long post...
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  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with this - full marks for a solid defense.

    Per Jeff Cooper, if you are going to defend, be resolute and decisive. That's what you're seeing here. Let's break it down:

    1. Grab for gun while getting off line of fire. All martial art techniques for gun defense teach this. From Karate to Bagua, Krav to Silat, at least one hand goes for the gun as you exit the sight picture.

    2. Wrest the gun away. The gunsel's finger is trapped in the trigger guard. This gives the defender an almost unstoppable advantage, and if you're practicing this with a partner with a red or blue gun, care must be taken because breaking or spraining the attacker's index finger is likely to happen.

    3. Close the distance. The normal reaction is to move away from the threat. Most combat systems teach you to do the opposite: advance forward into the threat and engage. This is not expected and is un-instinctive.

    Everything else is style. In this Krav demo, there's a kick to the knee or groin, but that's not mandatory. Provided you accomplish 1 through 3 above, you'll get the job done. Try it with a partner at home with a red or blue gun and you'll see. So - what does this teach us?

    The attacker should keep the gun at the hip, away from combatives. The attacker should keep the off hand in position to control the target if in close range.

    Study the video in reverse. What should the attacker do to avoid these outcomes? If you have a free range, you can practice drawing and shooting without presentation of the firearm. If you're a defender, know when just handing over the goods is the better decision.
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