Good article on use of force/violent encounters (kinda long but worth it)

Good article on use of force/violent encounters (kinda long but worth it)

This is a discussion on Good article on use of force/violent encounters (kinda long but worth it) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I found this online pretty good read. Ten Important Things To Know About Violence...

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    Good article on use of force/violent encounters (kinda long but worth it)

    I found this online pretty good read.

    Ten Important Things To Know About Violence
    Exacto, Mike1956, WHEC724 and 5 others like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Coming from a martial arts background, what I continue to find interesting is that this concern with OODA loops, milliseconds to react and application of violence is really only found among handgun or firearm users.

    This deserves some thought. Though it's multifaceted, and the latter involves the use of firearms where a bullet is faster than a fist, not all MA are empty handed. Is it just over confidence?

    Consequently, I've rethought all my SD concepts since I've begun carrying.
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    JMB
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Coming from a martial arts background, what I continue to find interesting is that this concern with OODA loops, milliseconds to react and application of violence is really only found among handgun or firearm users.

    This deserves some thought. Though it's multifaceted, and the latter involves the use of firearms where a bullet is faster than a fist, not all MA are empty handed. Is it just over confidence?

    Consequently, I've rethought all my SD concepts since I've begun carrying.
    This isn't the case at all. Do a little research on who defined it and put it together...I think you'll be surprised at its origin!
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    In my personal and professional opinion, that is the mindset to have and a mindset I fear we are losing, especially in the civilian world (I’m talking to the cops, too). This is in large part due to the political and “progressive” nature of our legal system and the affects it has on teachers and instructors. The military is somewhat immune from this pedantic shift, but whether this continues (and for how long) remains to be seen.
    I cannot imagine this guy is a veteran and made that statement. Far from being immune, the military has become their test tube. Eventhe most ridiculous rainbow unicorn ideas get foisted on our military, and our soldiers die because of it.

    BdagerJ, I would sat that's because, as was touched on in the article, deploying your sidearm is the only "half measure" when carrying. You pull that trigger and it's no half measure. It's for keeps, and every one, from .25 to 20mm, is absolutely lethal. So, the decision making is logically what gets the attention. In martial arts for defense, including mele weapons, coup de gras is murder, but anything short of that in self defense isn't... Gunfights can end in incapacitation, but they are just as likely to end in fatality, and there is simply less control.
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    I liked his definition and the use of violence. It makes perfect sense at least to me. I have studied violence and the application of it in self defense. Thanks for sharing Bro.....
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    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Excellent article.

    I particularly liked point 8; "Training for violence is important, but training for what leads up to violent action is more important."
    __________________________________
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    This isn't the case at all. Do a little research on who defined it and put it together...I think you'll be surprised at its origin!
    You're begging the question my friend. The author may have been a martial artist but upon training with firearms, he realized how deadly serious actual SD was. Just like me. :)
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    JMB
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    You're begging the question my friend. The author may have been a martial artist but upon training with firearms, he realized how deadly serious actual SD was. Just like me. :)
    I simply meant that it is used outside handguns and firearms users...way outside
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    The author makes the error of equating force with violence. That is only true at one extreme of the force continuum. It is perhaps understandable that he would make such an error; when looked at solely from the perspective of a firearm, the rest of the continuum becomes moot. Never-the-less, it doesn't change his basic premise that we need to accept ahead of time the use of violence.
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    I think this artical like many leave out one very important component. How fast things can happen. How fast things do happen. How much things change in a very small amount of time.

    I also cant agree with the whole heart rate chart... my experience is thats not how it works.

    But otherwise a very good artical, that given me some new things to think about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    I think this artical like many leave out one very important component. How fast things can happen. How fast things do happen. How much things change in a very small amount of time.

    I also cant agree with the whole heart rate chart... my experience is thats not how it works.

    But otherwise a very good artical, that given me some new things to think about.
    The heart rate chart is a gross oversimplification. For a much more in-depth treatment of the subject, read Grossman's "On Combat." There are many factors that affect the actual heart rate(s) at which certain conditions are expressed, such as prior experience and training. Moreover, it only refers to increased heart rate as a result of the sympathetic nervous system kicking in--not, for example, an increased heart rate due to exercise.
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    Great read.


    Badger,
    We have been teaching reaction time in driving cars and motorcycles for years. Even something we do everyday (drive a car) takes some people seconds to respond to stimulus.
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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Yes, but what I'm getting at is that typically 'martial artists' are comprised of a particular type of person. The have a type of 'magical thinking', and, in comparison to firearm carriers, they're not really "serious" about self-defense.

    Think about the differences in the mindset of someone who chooses to carry a firearm, and let's say gets a permit (to distinguish between a thug and a LAC, for example).

    If you think about all the goofy things 'martial artists' study, about the tools they carry, about their lack of politeness (to wit: brown belt fever). They are in it for the person aggrandizement, for the 'show'. Often times the people that study MA are those who are not athletic enough to make a team sport in school.

    In fact, we know as firearm users that not even a handgun is a guarantee of stopping an assailant and your typical Traditional MA carries around a collection of rather silly toys, thinks that wearing a special type of belt and pyjamas makes them deadly (even though they're 40lbs over-weight).

    Anyway, my point is, if you're serious about SD, you don't take a class in kicking someone in the head, you buy and learn to use and learn to fight with a firearm. Firearm users are concerned about specifics, unlike traditional martial artists who are -typically- concerned with bluster.

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    I'm glad you said all that and not me. Everyone who has had H2 from their Uncle Sam knows how ungraceful and gross motor it is.

    I played kendo for many years. Japanese fencing is one martial art (and actual "Martial" art involving soldiers and weapons) that is exactly like SD handguns. "Ichigo ichie" translates to "one chance". There is really no blocking or fancy moving around. It's gliding around so you feet are always placed in a position to strike, and you are holding your shehnai in the same position all the time to land the perfect blow. That's the whole goal; to land the perfect killing blow...like a real sword fight...over in seconds. One chance, just like a gunfight. If you mess around in a tournament and start trying to parry attacks you're never going to get good, because it isn't like western fencing. Landing a hit doesn't mean a point. It has to be a perfect killing blow to score a point. It's just a game, but it's the game they've played for thousands of years to prepare for battle, and the mindset translates perfectly to guns, because there's no blocking there either.

    They even have a whole quick draw sport/art called Iaido. Basically how to deploy your sword and attack when there is little or no time to react, also exactly like SD gunnery... I found that pretty boring, but then again I don't carry a sword around for protection...
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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Yes, but what I'm getting at is that typically 'martial artists' are comprised of a particular type of person. The have a type of 'magical thinking', and, in comparison to firearm carriers, they're not really "serious" about self-defense.

    Think about the differences in the mindset of someone who chooses to carry a firearm, and let's say gets a permit (to distinguish between a thug and a LAC, for example).

    If you think about all the goofy things 'martial artists' study, about the tools they carry, about their lack of politeness (to wit: brown belt fever). They are in it for the person aggrandizement, for the 'show'. Often times the people that study MA are those who are not athletic enough to make a team sport in school.

    In fact, we know as firearm users that not even a handgun is a guarantee of stopping an assailant and your typical Traditional MA carries around a collection of rather silly toys, thinks that wearing a special type of belt and pyjamas makes them deadly (even though they're 40lbs over-weight).

    Anyway, my point is, if you're serious about SD, you don't take a class in kicking someone in the head, you buy and learn to use and learn to fight with a firearm. Firearm users are concerned about specifics, unlike traditional martial artists who are -typically- concerned with bluster.
    I guess I am not typical then. I am a little overweight, but I am also over 50 and I still exercise daily. I started in Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu about 35 years ago, with no intention of ever promoting and stayed a white belt until my daughter and I studied together and she shamed me into a test. There was no CCW. I do not know what toy's you refer to, I only use what god issued me. When I started taking TKD I was as serious about SD as I am now. Many martial arts have been watered down to become quasi sports and money making operations more than learning the art for the sake of the art anymore. Just like anything else you must match the art with your fighting style, TKD for example is perfect for me, it is what is called a "hard" style and is quite linear.

    By your statements I can tell that you have no martial arts training. Do you have any fighting training or experience? Besides you never kick to the head in a fight, there are two reasons for this, first it is too slow. A lower kick is faster and usually more powerful, my rule is no kicks above the waist in a fight. 2nd any intentional strikes to the head are considered deadly force, so unless it is already there it is a bad move.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

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