R+G; Over the shoulder and Inquartata up on you tube

This is a discussion on R+G; Over the shoulder and Inquartata up on you tube within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This one is sure to bring some interesting observations and thoughts/comments. Keep in mind these are just "other" ways to solve a problem, not just ...

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    R+G; Over the shoulder and Inquartata up on you tube

    This one is sure to bring some interesting observations and thoughts/comments. Keep in mind these are just "other" ways to solve a problem, not just THE way, just A way. Playing in the 360 world, discovering what might be an option or not. The hits are all good in all 3 skills using movement in two of them, though the over the shoulder could be employed while moving away at that oblique angle see in the vid.

    R+G; Over the shoulder; Inquartata2 - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    This one is sure to bring some interesting observations and thoughts/comments. Keep in mind these are just "other" ways to solve a problem, not just THE way, just A way. Playing in the 360 world, discovering what might be an option or not. The hits are all good in all 3 skills using movement in two of them, though the over the shoulder could be employed while moving away at that oblique angle see in the vid.

    R+G; Over the shoulder; Inquartata2 - YouTube
    Raising the weak/support arm is a quick way to balance, having discovered that slipping. Looks like it is a two fold help in this. Looking well forward to it.

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    Member Array glocknjeep's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of using or anyone using these techniques. Respectfully, either of these techniques seem like too much liability to be safely employed at a public range or employed responsibly in a defensive situation. Further I am not sure how running by anyone and shooting them could be defendable in court. Is this stuff you are teaching customers in a class?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknjeep View Post
    I'm not a fan of using or anyone using these techniques. Respectfully, either of these techniques seem like too much liability to be safely employed at a public range or employed responsibly in a defensive situation. Further I am not sure how running by anyone and shooting them could be defendable in court. Is this stuff you are teaching customers in a class?
    That skills drill is to get people to be able to shoot moving threats. As we can't really get students to volunteer to be "runners", the skill is a nearly a reverse engineered drill for shooting at movers while still moving on your own. It introduces the concept you don't have to look at the gun [ notice the gun well below line of sight while making the hits at a run ]to make hits on threats while moving. Most are new to moving and shooting, this gets them their feet wet. One doesn't have to shoot while running by someone, but one could easily find themselves sprinting/running while having to engage threats from any position they may be on the clock, this drill gives students the confidence they can hit while moving on movers by using a threat focused skill that makes the hits.

    either of these techniques seem like too much liability to be safely employed at a public range

    They aren't meant to be used on a square range, but in the 360 degree real world of SD.

    or employed responsibly in a defensive situation.

    I'll employ whatever it takes to put lead on threat first, or in the shortest possible time. You see any misses in those three skills demonstrated? Liability isn't the most prevalent thought I've had when someone was trying to kill me, it was getting lead on threat first. You see any misses? What liability do you see? That YOU might miss using them? That's interesting as the average hit rate for LE in the last 40 years has hovered about between 19 and 23%

    In those three skills demonstrated, you see any misses? I'll use them and have at least the same hit rate or better than LEO's and citizens on the streets, but I'll be doing it in less time generally speaking. All I see is three ways to move out of the line of fire and make hits from various SD distances usually encountered. That IS the goal, is it not?
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    I'm a big proponent of point shooting and movement. Thats how it happens in the real-world.
    There are many techniques out there, find one that you can employ best and practice!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That skills drill is to get people to be able to shoot moving threats. As we can't really get students to volunteer to be "runners", the skill is a nearly a reverse engineered drill for shooting at movers while still moving on your own. It introduces the concept you don't have to look at the gun [ notice the gun well below line of sight while making the hits at a run ]to make hits on threats while moving. Most are new to moving and shooting, this gets them their feet wet. One doesn't have to shoot while running by someone, but one could easily find themselves sprinting/running while having to engage threats from any position they may be on the clock, this drill gives students the confidence they can hit while moving on movers by using a threat focused skill that makes the hits.

    either of these techniques seem like too much liability to be safely employed at a public range

    They aren't meant to be used on a square range, but in the 360 degree real world of SD.

    or employed responsibly in a defensive situation.

    I'll employ whatever it takes to put lead on threat first, or in the shortest possible time. You see any misses in those three skills demonstrated? Liability isn't the most prevalent thought I've had when someone was trying to kill me, it was getting lead on threat first. You see any misses? What liability do you see? That YOU might miss using them? That's interesting as the average hit rate for LE in the last 40 years has hovered about between 19 and 23%

    In those three skills demonstrated, you see any misses? I'll use them and have at least the same hit rate or better than LEO's and citizens on the streets, but I'll be doing it in less time generally speaking. All I see is three ways to move out of the line of fire and make hits from various SD distances usually encountered. That IS the goal, is it not?
    I'm glad you can make hit's with a skill you've practiced in a setting most people don't regularly have access to. Point shooting also definitely has it's merits as well. I don't see the demonstration of these skills as having a point other than Annie Oakley factor. With respect, I am not trying to personally attack you here, but these techniques strike me as gimmicky, irresponsible parlor tricks, where they should probably focus on moving and shooting (and point shooting) while facing the threat (maximum hit probability) to minimize injuries to bystanders.
    Are you teaching the over the shoulder technique to be employed while running away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That skills drill is to get people to be able to shoot moving threats. As we can't really get students to volunteer to be "runners", the skill is a nearly a reverse engineered drill for shooting at movers while still moving on your own. It introduces the concept you don't have to look at the gun [ notice the gun well below line of sight while making the hits at a run ]to make hits on threats while moving. Most are new to moving and shooting, this gets them their feet wet. One doesn't have to shoot while running by someone, but one could easily find themselves sprinting/running while having to engage threats from any position they may be on the clock, this drill gives students the confidence they can hit while moving on movers by using a threat focused skill that makes the hits.

    either of these techniques seem like too much liability to be safely employed at a public range

    They aren't meant to be used on a square range, but in the 360 degree real world of SD.

    or employed responsibly in a defensive situation.

    I'll employ whatever it takes to put lead on threat first, or in the shortest possible time. You see any misses in those three skills demonstrated? Liability isn't the most prevalent thought I've had when someone was trying to kill me, it was getting lead on threat first. You see any misses? What liability do you see? That YOU might miss using them? That's interesting as the average hit rate for LE in the last 40 years has hovered about between 19 and 23%

    In those three skills demonstrated, you see any misses? I'll use them and have at least the same hit rate or better than LEO's and citizens on the streets, but I'll be doing it in less time generally speaking. All I see is three ways to move out of the line of fire and make hits from various SD distances usually encountered. That IS the goal, is it not?
    Further, I think liability should absolutely be a prevalent thought even though you may be getting shot at. Per the four rules: be sure of your target and what lies beyond. If an innocent can be hit you shouldn't take the shot. If you did and an innocent is hurt or killed you can be found guilty of manslaughter and rightly so.
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    Brownie,

    That was interesting. I think some of the time we cross the line of needed training, to gunFU. I really enjoy the point shooting, but the over the shoulder and ballet stuff was a bit much for even me. That being said, I can see some instances where they might be applicable...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Brownie,

    That was interesting. I think some of the time we cross the line of needed training, to gunFU. I really enjoy the point shooting, but the over the shoulder and ballet stuff was a bit much for even me. That being said, I can see some instances where they might be applicable...

    I am trying to find my tactical leotard...

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    I would also not be happy to be your camera man. This is you on the way up to over your shoulder with a condition 1 pistol

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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknjeep View Post
    I'm glad you can make hit's with a skill you've practiced in a setting most people don't regularly have access to. Point shooting also definitely has it's merits as well. I don't see the demonstration of these skills as having a point other than Annie Oakley factor. With respect, I am not trying to personally attack you here, but these techniques strike me as gimmicky, irresponsible parlor tricks, where they should probably focus on moving and shooting (and point shooting) while facing the threat (maximum hit probability) to minimize injuries to bystanders.
    Are you teaching the over the shoulder technique to be employed while running away?
    Any time it may be judicious to expedite time to threat based on time and distance. In the over the shoulder, one may get rounds on the threat, keep pouring them on while they then turn to face the threat or boggie away, all situationally dependent on circumstances.

    these techniques strike me as gimmicky, irresponsible parlor tricks, where they should probably focus on moving and shooting (and point shooting) while facing the threat (maximum hit probability) to minimize injuries to bystanders.

    Further, I think liability should absolutely be a prevalent thought even though you may be getting shot at. Per the four rules: be sure of your target and what lies beyond. If an innocent can be hit you shouldn't take the shot. If you did and an innocent is hurt or killed you can be found guilty of manslaughter and rightly so.

    When you're up to your arse in alligators, one doesn't usually think about who drained the swamp. I can attest that when I had to defend myself, the LAST thing I was thinking about was liability. Hesitation gets one killed. You either have the talent to perform in a 360 world or you don't. Training to always face your threat has been detrimental to others health in gun play situations. Maximum hit probability? I'd say my 100% hit rate in the vid, while moving and shooting should stand me as well as about anyone on the streets under real world conditions that hasn't a lick of formal training under their belt.

    If an innocent can be hit you shouldn't take the shot.

    Any miss CAN hit an innocent from over 100 yrds away. As the hit rate is 19-23% for police in this country, you're suggesting never ever taking a shot unless it's a contact shot? That's the ONLY way to guarantee a hit on the streets. Hesitation to fire on someone who's an imminent threat to your very existence has gotten people killed.

    Lets prioritize shall we?

    What the first priority when you're life is in grave peril of being extinguished RFN?

    Is it to check for bystanders who may be potentially hit with a miss [ and we can expect misses based on historical record ] before you engage? Is it to take time to assess how many or where an innocent may be hit in error, calculate the odds of a miss and who may be injured in error?

    Or is it to end the threat in the most expeditious manner you can employ before you are killed?

    If you did and an innocent is hurt or killed you can be found guilty of manslaughter and rightly so.

    I'll take that chance with the courts, IF I've survived to begin with, that's a far better outcome than hesitating, assessing the bystanders who may be hit with a round if I miss, filling your head with those issues that aren't the prime directive when you're taking or about to take incoming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknjeep View Post
    I would also not be happy to be your camera man. This is you on the way up to over your shoulder with a condition 1 pistol
    I've looked at it several times in slow motion. The muzzle NEVER swept the camera man or myself, thank you very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Brownie,

    That was interesting. I think some of the time we cross the line of needed training, to gunFU. I really enjoy the point shooting, but the over the shoulder and ballet stuff was a bit much for even me. That being said, I can see some instances where they might be applicable...
    And that's all we're really doing, exploring the possibilities and possible application if one found themselves in a situation they might employ them Harry. This isn't needed training, it's just more training exposing others to possibilities in the 360 world.

    I fully expected many to believe these were over the top skills to be able to employ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Any time it may be judicious to expedite time to threat based on time and distance. In the over the shoulder, one may get rounds on the threat, keep pouring them on while they then turn to face the threat or boggie away, all situationally dependent on circumstances.

    these techniques strike me as gimmicky, irresponsible parlor tricks, where they should probably focus on moving and shooting (and point shooting) while facing the threat (maximum hit probability) to minimize injuries to bystanders.

    Further, I think liability should absolutely be a prevalent thought even though you may be getting shot at. Per the four rules: be sure of your target and what lies beyond. If an innocent can be hit you shouldn't take the shot. If you did and an innocent is hurt or killed you can be found guilty of manslaughter and rightly so.

    When you're up to your arse in alligators, one doesn't usually think about who drained the swamp. I can attest that when I had to defend myself, the LAST thing I was thinking about was liability. Hesitation gets one killed. You either have the talent to perform in a 360 world or you don't. Training to always face your threat has been detrimental to others health in gun play situations. Maximum hit probability? I'd say my 100% hit rate in the vid, while moving and shooting should stand me as well as about anyone on the streets under real world conditions that hasn't a lick of formal training under their belt.

    If an innocent can be hit you shouldn't take the shot.

    Any miss CAN hit an innocent from over 100 yrds away. As the hit rate is 19-23% for police in this country, you're suggesting never ever taking a shot unless it's a contact shot? That's the ONLY way to guarantee a hit on the streets. Hesitation to fire on someone who's an imminent threat to your very existence has gotten people killed.

    Lets prioritize shall we?

    What the first priority when you're life is in grave peril of being extinguished RFN?

    Is it to check for bystanders who may be potentially hit with a miss [ and we can expect misses based on historical record ] before you engage? Is it to take time to assess how many or where an innocent may be hit in error, calculate the odds of a miss and who may be injured in error?

    Or is it to end the threat in the most expeditious manner you can employ before you are killed?

    If you did and an innocent is hurt or killed you can be found guilty of manslaughter and rightly so.

    I'll take that chance with the courts, IF I've survived to begin with, that's a far better outcome than hesitating, assessing the bystanders who may be hit with a round if I miss, filling your head with those issues that aren't the prime directive when you're taking or about to take incoming.
    Well, your'e more ninja than I am. I think your attitude for what lies beyond your target is a bit cavalier but good luck with your training school.

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    I'll say this; you have skill. Those were some nice taps!

    I don't think the trick shooting is going to make a difference if he's behind you and got the drop, but it sure looks cool (like it should be in a movie after the hero shoots everyone up, saves the girl, and ends the last bad guy over the shoulder as he's walking out).
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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