Training for extreme situations (blood loss)...

Training for extreme situations (blood loss)...

This is a discussion on Training for extreme situations (blood loss)... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After my surgery, at the beginning of the month, I had the interesting and scary experience of undetected internal bleeding. I was bleeding into my ...

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Thread: Training for extreme situations (blood loss)...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Training for extreme situations (blood loss)...

    After my surgery, at the beginning of the month, I had the interesting and scary experience of undetected internal bleeding. I was bleeding into my abdomen, without any outward sign, and it wasn't until I was slipping into hypovolemic shock that we figured out what was going on. They had to go back in, and afterward, while I was in recovery, I had some time to think.

    I know some of the advanced LFI courses train for high stress/adrenaline situations using IV-administered adrenaline, but does anyone teach how to remain functional despite significant blood loss? If so, how do they do it? As I reflected, I realized how difficult it would have been to defend myself having lost a significant amount of blood.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.


  2. #2
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    Hard to find training for that. Extreme shock is somewhat similar too, as well as heat stroke or heat exhaustion, and hard to produce on demand. There might be some drugs that would produce that effect, but I have no idea if they're legal or even available.

    Glad they got you fixed up OK!


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

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    Hard to see any real solution Tom - as effective (circulated) blood vol decreases so too of course does BP.

    Bottom line, apart from cardiac distress symptoms (tachycardia etc) - is purely and simply, compromized oxygenation. CNS will suffer first and nothing much I can see there apart from whiffs of neat O2 will change a slowing of function.

    Muscular effects will follow but it's the CNS aspect which is most critical.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Hard to find training for that. Extreme shock is somewhat similar too, as well as heat stroke or heat exhaustion, and hard to produce on demand. There might be some drugs that would produce that effect, but I have no idea if they're legal or even available.

    Glad they got you fixed up OK!
    There are medications that could induce shock.

    Administering them for this purpose would, to put it politely, be dangerously irresponsible.

    I cannot imagine an even quasi-competent medical provider doing such a thing.

    Heck, even the IV Epi is foolish IMHO. Not worth the risks.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  5. #5
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    The only thing that is going to keep you functional during high blood loss is adrenaline and determination. Even then you only have a very small window of time to do anything in a propper manner.
    Beretta 92FS

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    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    I suffered the loss of a couple of units of blood once during an "incident" in which I completely severed a radial artery. I was able to function, solve the "problem", stop the blood flow and drive myself to a nearby hospital. The best way to describe what allowed me to do so was plain, simple determination.
    The best "training" that I can think of for this is a full contact martial art - getting your butt kicked thoroughly and often will help you develop the mental focus and self discipline necessary to keep calm and concentrate when you need to in order to handle an emergency.
    I'd highly recommend staying away from IV administered eppi - imho, this is irresponsible.

  7. #7
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    I cannot imagine an even quasi-competent medical provider doing such a thing.
    Agreed - not being a proponent of said behavior.


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    I know some of the advanced LFI courses train for high stress/adrenaline situations using IV-administered adrenaline, but does anyone teach how to remain functional despite significant blood loss? If so, how do they do it? As I reflected, I realized how difficult it would have been to defend myself having lost a significant amount of blood.
    As much as Mas stresses liability, he really has someone pump a cardiac drug into you during live fire??? As a skeptic, I must ask for a source for this statement.

    Here's how to train for blood loss (Disclaimer: I do not endorse this!):



    Assemble the following supplies:

    1. Friend, preferably with EMS or first aid training
    2. Cell phone. Dial 9-1-1, set aside, close by
    3. Assorted bandages, 4x4, 5x9, "trauma dressings"
    4. Assorted roller gauze
    5. Scalpel
    6. Er, make that a really GOOD friend
    7. Firearm, loaded
    8. Targets, set
    9. Emesis basin
    10. Towels
    11. Drinking water
    12. Extra shirt, pants, shoes, socks, underwear (for you & friend)
    13. Face shield with eye and face protection, non-latex exam gloves
    14. Rubber mat
    15. Bleach in a 1:10 solution
    16. Cam corder
    17. Tripod

    Do the following:

    1. Stand on rubber mat, activate camcorder
    2. Have friend don face shield and gloves, apply scalpel to inner aspect of non-shooting (let's keep this simple) upper arm, press and pull rapidly, repeat if necessary (see movie "Cellular" for technique)
    3. Wait until pool of blood is approximately three feet wide, or until you feel lightheaded or nauseous
    4. Apply bandages and dressings as appropriate, OR, initiate drill without bandages and dressings at two foot mark
    5. Proceed with shooting drill
    6. Experience stress and blood loss, enjoy!
    7. Fill emesis basin with stomach contents, clean up with towels, rinse mouth with water
    8. Check/apply bandages and dressings, reapply as necessary
    9. Fall/lie down, raise arm above level of heart
    10. Have friend dial SEND
    11. After your departure to the ED, have friend use bleach solution to clean mat, change clothes, and bring your clothes and camcorder to the ED
    12. Post video to youtube.com, with link here, write a report and become a been-there, done-that hard core expert

    Plan B: Wait until August. Eat and drink nothing for 3 days. Dress in 3 layers of sweats. Go to range. Eat 3 packages of Salt and Vinegar chips, 3 packages of Gummi bears. Run full speed for 30 minutes. Drink 1 bottle of Ipecac syrup at 20 minutes into run. Commence drill.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #9
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    I am not going to delete the above because it is obviously said in a tongue in cheek format. However, DO NOT DO THIS - IT WILL GET SOMEONE KILLED.

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    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    , as well as heat stroke or heat exhaustion, and hard to produce on demand. !
    Not to go too far off topic.......but

    Having to deal with this EVERY year, I can tell you first hand, once you get to this point, it is amazingly hard to function. It is just sheer determination to not die that will be your driving force.

    I overheat easily. Doctors have been seeing me for this since I was about 8 years old. I am in the hospital almost once a year becasue of it. Everytime, the Dr. tells me, "you know this can kill you". Yes I know. I still can't do a lot about it, if I wish to live a normal life. I am not one to sit around. I like to be doing things.

    I does not have to be HOT outside for this either. I have overheated in 0 degree weather in North Dakota, while shoveling snow.

    I know when it is starting, what the signs are, what to do, what my limits of function are, and when to call EMTs. Sometimes it happens way too fast to deal with.

    I can only imagine what Gary had to deal with as far as blood loss, but if it is close to what I've dealt with during heat exhaustion, then there is NO training that will be effective.
    Sean
    XD 9SC | XD 45ACP Service | XD 45ACP Compact |Borealis
    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

  11. #11
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Step one should be: Have your friend hold your "sign" for you.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  12. #12
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    As Gary said, find something full contact. it is the best, safe way to train for stress, shock reaction
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Sorry to have asked the question and disappeared. Thanks for the various replies, both serious and sarcastic. Yes, the blood loss shocky feeling was rather like heat exhaustion - rapid pulse, dropping pressure, light-headed, general weakness. Functioning after injury is difficult to train for, but a possible and even likely scenario following a close-quarters encounter. At least something to think about, if not something one can actually train for. Perhaps, as some suggested, the training of functioning under the stress of a full-contact martial art is the best way to train the mind to cope with such a situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    As much as Mas stresses liability, he really has someone pump a cardiac drug into you during live fire??? As a skeptic, I must ask for a source for this statement.

    Here's how to train for blood loss (Disclaimer: I do not endorse this!):
    (tongue-in-cheek sarcasm snipped...)
    As a skeptic, please read the course description for LFI-IV at Ayoob's site. They may not do this as part of every class, but they did it at least once in the past three or four classes, and Ayoob wrote about it. For those willing to experience such a thing, more power to them, but it isn't something I would allow or condone. I merely referred to it as an extreme training for an extreme situation. I wondered if there was anyone else doing something similar, inducing shock in a controlled situation as extreme training, not that I'm looking for such a class.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

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