Some thoughts on levels of training

Some thoughts on levels of training

This is a discussion on Some thoughts on levels of training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Currently we are under 8 inches of snow and the temp has dropped about 25 degrees and I am bored to death which all things ...

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Thread: Some thoughts on levels of training

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    Some thoughts on levels of training

    Currently we are under 8 inches of snow and the temp has dropped about 25 degrees and I am bored to death which all things considered is a good thing but it gave me the opportunity to scan youtube, the mother of all training sites, and watch videos of different classes. Some were average, some I was able to learn something from and a couple made me sit back and think.

    We have all seen the news headlines and reports of the grandmother, mother, young kid who defends herself or himself with grandpa's old revolver, a knitting needle a frying pan or whatever from an attacker. They are lauded and applauded for surviving the attack, as they should be, however many take these events and use it to justify surviving a self defense encounter without any formal training.

    I have always taken issue with those statements, today though while watching one of the videos a statement was made that, to me at least, made sense in these matters. These people possessed a "Survival level of training". They were attacked, took up arms and defeated the aggressor without one bit of "training" however to me this simply reinforces the "Warrior or Survival Mindset".

    A mother and child are in an accident. The child is trapped the mother seeing her child in danger performs an act of incredible strength and removes her child from the car. Did she train for it? Did she workout moving her Prius around the yard? Doubtful, but I will check youtube for videos, she simply did it.

    It is common knowledge that when faced with danger we either run or fight. The "fight or flight" reflex is built into us we do not have to run to the nearest phone booth to change nor do we call our therapist to get advice we just do it. The most recent event that comes to mind is the events that occurred when the young boy went back into a burning building to save others costing him his life. He was not trained in structure fire rescue he was an everyday kid who when confronted with a threat decided to "fight" rather than run or do nothing.

    Unless you have been in a situation, no matter what it is, you will not know what you will do in regards to acting or doing nothing/leaving and each situation would probably be different but are you willing to stake you life on it? Will you give in to your pain, your fear? Will you freeze up and do nothing? Training allows us to experience on different levels the fight or flight reflex. Years ago a "training technique" that was used was to actually inject yourself or be injected with epinephrine to chemical induce the adrenaline dump that you experience in an actual situation. After injection you would engage the targets or conduct the scenario "under the influence" so to speak to see how the adrenaline dump affected you. It led to some good research and many a shooter was humbled by the experience but it also showed that those who either had been in certain situations i.e. combat, prior armed encounters or trained for situations had the least reaction to the injection.

    The average gun toter does not need to train to the level of a jump certified, scuba trained, sniper however they need to take their level of training beyond the basic survival level simply because it is not reliable. As I stated earlier you do not know what will happen and yes I know that even those that train may freeze up, drop their mag or whatever in an actual event but I would wager that they have a higher probability of survival than those who rely on the lowest level.

    Other thing brought out in the video was it does not matter if you can draw and get the first round off in .000002 seconds, it is the first hit that counts. Yes someone will probably not simply stand there and let you shoot at them until you get it right but remember their own fight or flight will kick in so they will also be in a decision making process but just think if your attacker has been shot at before, has been fighting most if not all of his adult life has he not been training to deal with the fight or flight reflex without even knowing it? Is this person under the influence of drugs or alcohol that impairs his ability to process fight or flight? Is the drug he is using not even affected by the sudden dump of adrenaline into his body? Uh oh what now Batman?

    Recently there was a post about a confrontation at a bar where the person drew a weapon showing the troublemaker that the victim was armed. What happened? The troublemaker apparently did not blink an eye and kept on doing what he was doing.

    I see on this and other forums statements used like, "A sane man would never attack me knowing I was armed", "He would have to be crazy to try to grab my gun, or come after me with a (insert weapon of choice here). Surprise guys many of those committing crimes are not sane due to mental disease or defect, alcohol or drugs or plain don't care. They may not feel/register pain the way we do.

    Remember the video of Tex Grubner shooting himself in the leg with a .45? He was walking and talking after he shot himself, granted he was in pain while doing it, but still walking an talking. Imagine what a focused person would do after your first shot hits him in a manner that does not immediately incapacitate him? He would probably continue his attack and possibly monkey stomp you into the ground.
    Yes you could keep firing hoping to hit a more vital area but now basically he is a pissed off wounded animal and you are the cause of his pain. Your mind is saying "I shot him with my (insert gun and caliber here) and the article I read said it had a 96.63% one shot stopping average" well guess what he did not read the article.

    Articles, statistics and videos are a great way to increase knowledge stored for personal reference however much of that knowledge they have presented is from a controlled environment by people who have never fired a weapon in their life they are simply plugging in mathematical data into a computer giving what the mathematical conclusion should be not what may work in a real world environment, there are simply to many variables with the main one being the individual themselves.
    There are some big, muscled up, overweight, high, drunk, mentally deficient folks out there determined to take what they want, prepare for it get out and train. Go beyond your comfort zone. Expand your comfort zone. Go beyond your limits and push yourself to be better. It might save your life one day.

    Ok enough said going back to youtube to find the world's greatest pole dancers gotta have some fun.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Awesome post Tacman.
    gatorbait51 and oneshot like this.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
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    I just carry an instantly inflating Nancy Pelosi doll. That stops everything .
    EN MI VIDA AL MAL NO TEMERÉ, POR QUE EN MI CORAZÓN Y MIS DOS .38 SUPER COLT.

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    JMB
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    Good post.

    What do you say to those who would counter that "If I don't know how I will react until it happens, what good does training do?"...I'm not one of them by the way. There is probably more information and training available today than ever before, the problem is...there is probably more information and training available today than ever before. This makes it difficult for new shooters or those interested in self defense to filter the baloney from the useful stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    Good post.

    What do you say to those who would counter that "If I don't know how I will react until it happens, what good does training do?"...I'm not one of them by the way. There is probably more information and training available today than ever before, the problem is...there is probably more information and training available today than ever before. This makes it difficult for new shooters or those interested in self defense to filter the baloney from the useful stuff.
    All true. Smarter folks than I have long asserted that in combat, I will perform to the lowest level of my training. If a person is untrained and unsure of how they will respond in a given scenario, they most likely will respond ineffectively.
    gatorbait51, Bad Bob and molleur like this.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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    Gatorbait you the man. I had one of those over here but even I am not that desperate yet so I went with the Sarah Palin version.

    JMB that is the million dollar question.

    In today's electronic age why shop when you can sit at home in your boxers and order online? I have been asked the same question over and over and pretty much give the same response.
    Shop around, avoid schools that have any reference to a snake in their name or company logo just seems weird, just because the instructor did 3 combat tours in Iraq does not mean he ever left the base pistol classes especially. The handgun is a secondary weapon at best in the military and even those issued a sidearm because of their MOS do not receive the training they need to in order to teach generally speaking. The world is full of operators and shooters, check references. Join forums like this and others or if there is a specific forum for their company join it and read.
    See how they deal with negative reviews, see what they are teaching. Call them and ask questions. I don't know how many videos I have watched on youtube from "Tactical Trainers" who have comments disabled or deleted what was obviously a negative comment.
    Most importantly decide what you want to learn. Marksmanship, how to fight with a firearm, as you know there is a big difference, drawing from concealment and so on and make your decision from there. I tend to avoid instructors that have the doctrine that their way is the only way. There is no one technique, weapon or bullet that works every
    time, every place. They can offer guidance or their opinion and explain why they feel that way but not "if you do not do it this way you will die" mentality.

    Trainers rely a lot on word of mouth. It does not take much to send a ripple effect about bad experiences throughout the internet, however read closely the comments many of the haters of this company or this man have never taken a class from that person it was the friend of a brothers third cousin who read it somewhere. Other than that sometimes it is a crap shoot and you take your chances.

    I, personally, do not like Front Sight but my bias is against the owner Dr. Pizza Guy and his corrupt business practices not the classes themselves. From what I understand they offer many things that the new shooter could benefit from and also offer opportunities to shoot weapons the average person would never be able to.
    I do support Yeager and Tactical Response, many don't, is he for everyone? Lord no but he does have some solid doctrine from what I have seen and read but I have never had the opportunity to take a class from him but would not hesitate to given the chance.

    You also have to consider what is high speed to some is just another day at the office for another. I love to go to basic level/introductory classes not to show what I can do but because it reinforces the fundamentals for me. Go to a class and listen, take away what pertains to you and store the rest for later reference.

    Some that I would recommend are Tactical Response, Suarez International, Costa Lucas (Chris Costa whatever he calls his company) Haley Strategic (Travis Haley) Massad Ayoob, Gunsite are just a few off the top of my head. There are places like Kroll/The Crucible run by Kelly McCann that are intense training opportunities, I trained there years ago prior to coming over to Afghanistan the first time but again it is not for everyone.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    A great post Tacman, but I fear those who need to hear will not willingly listen.
    gatorbait51 and tacman605 like this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Oh come now Bill have faith after all we have faith in our government right? If we can stretch that far they can stretch to this.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Years ago, right after my ex left and cleaned house, I had to repell boarders in the middle of the night. I realized that though it'd turned out okay, they bolted, that I really didn't know what I was doing and I needed training.

    I suppose I could have reacted differently and thought I had it all together.

    As it turned out my ex had made a lot of enemies in her bill collectors job and she'd pretty much thrown me to the wolves

    It got worse, later some acquaintances who were trying to break into the recreational pharmaceutical market took exception to my refusing an offer that "I couldn't refuse"

    I trained hard, I trained often, I went to as many of the top training I could make time to get away to.

    Whenever I received praise from instructors I'd just remember that first incident, how all alone I was there with nothing but a Star PD and a 5 D Cell Maglight and though it was appreciated I never felt it was good enough.

    Anyway I know a lot of stuff and can do some cool things even if I am 25 years older and as many pounds heavier. People I'd had to keep a lookout for are almost all dead now, nothing like a high speed life to shorten it.

    And now I'm browsing course schedules and pondering what to do to knock the rust off after the shoulder rehab

    Anyway, great posts Tacman

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    Whenever I received praise from instructors I'd just remember that first incident, how all alone I was there with nothing but a Star PD and a 5 D Cell Maglight and though it was appreciated I never felt it was good enough.
    I think we are related with that combo you mentioned. LOL
    wdbailey and gatorbait51 like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Great stuff bro. Some will heed the warning while others will poo poo the idea. IMO it is a lack of understanding in the male mind. Yes I said Male. Females get it. Proof. All men can fight, all men can "make love" and all men can fornicate. It seems are greatest liability is our ego. Put it aside and learn how to use your weapon system of choice what ever that may be.

    I truly wish others would see the great responsibility there is in carrying a GUN. There is much more to it that it just being a right.....
    Bad Bob and gatorbait51 like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Distinguished Member Array Exacto's Avatar
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    My personal belief is that you must be pushed outside your comfort zone, to the point of failure when you train. Not every time, take some time to work slowly on fundamentals, or to just enjoy shooting. But when you are looking to make some gain, going over and over what you do well will not advance your skill level. It is good skills maintenance, but if you think back from where you are now to where you were when you started, and think about how you got here, you will see you had to be pushed out of that comfort zone. Most of us know what we can do, we want to find out what we cannot do, and work on that.
    Hoganbeg, Jaeger and gatorbait51 like this.
    Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunder bolt...... Sun Tzu.

    The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting........ Sun Tzu.

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    Good post.

    What do you say to those who would counter that "If I don't know how I will react until it happens, what good does training do?"...I'm not one of them by the way. There is probably more information and training available today than ever before, the problem is...there is probably more information and training available today than ever before. This makes it difficult for new shooters or those interested in self defense to filter the baloney from the useful stuff.
    Those with good training will default to the training, those with neither training and experience will not. In other words, you will do what you know how to do, that could be nothing. Those who survive a lethal encounter with desperate actions minus training are the exception and not the rule.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Those with good training will default to the training, those with neither training and experience will not. In other words, you will do what you know how to do, that could be nothing. Those who survive a lethal encounter with desperate actions minus training are the exception and not the rule.
    Yep, we default to the highest level of training we have mastered...Good point Bob....
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Ex Member Array Gearhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait51 View Post
    I just carry an instantly inflating Nancy Pelosi doll. That stops everything .
    Aarrrgggghhh. I'll be all afternoon trying to get that image out of my mind. That old gal is uglier than a bucket full of rocks.
    Last edited by Rock and Glock; February 5th, 2014 at 10:30 AM.
    Bad Bob and gatorbait51 like this.

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