Brief analysis of Israeli point-shooting methodology

This is a discussion on Brief analysis of Israeli point-shooting methodology within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It has been over a year since I took any training and I felt the need to be a student again. For that, and for ...

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Thread: Brief analysis of Israeli point-shooting methodology

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Brief analysis of Israeli point-shooting methodology

    It has been over a year since I took any training and I felt the need to be a student again. For that, and for wanting to do something different, I slid enough funds away from my debt-reduction and AR pistol account processes to pay for a one-day class in Israeli point shooting.

    Class was taught by an Israeli who's been in the US since '96 who was former CT unit member before he jumped the ocean to stay on this side. He goes back periodically to do some training over there. I assume therefore that this is the current and authentic method. So here's my analysis of it:

    Israeli point-shooting is a very structured method that is designed to a) get the gun to close to eye level and b) drive the gun in a straight-line to the target. If you do it the way you're supposed to, the position of the muscles and the physiological structure you set up moves the gun without arc or curve to the final shooting position. Key to this is setting up the 'spiral'--from the high position with the gun laying sideways on the support hand and the elbows high and back, the gun is basically screwed forward in a very straight line. This can be done either one or two-handed. Firing stance is wide-footed and low--a horse stance, basically--and back is straight. Ideally, shoulders are kept back throughout and there is no forward lean or projection of the arms forward at the shoulders.

    No shooting on the move. To change direction, you pull the gun in to the high position, pivot, project (if you're changing direction) or sprint, stop, shoot. It is preferred that you set yourself before the gun is projected to final shooting position. Movement, if possible, is always to the target. So if you're just turning, you step forward and around unless terrain doesn't allow for it. The idea is to always attack. You can also move vertically--we practiced a sidestep and drop to kneeling. Again, they want you to bring the gun in, move, then drive forward to firing position.

    We did not, obviously, get to where we were doing it very fast in just one day. I believe, nonetheless, that even with practice and experience, the presentation from the holster to firing is slower with this method than with any other shooting system I am aware of to date. That and the inability to shoot on the move are the major drawbacks of this system as I see them.

    It is a good basic shooting system that can be learned quickly (though full competence, as always, requires additional work). It seems most useful where groups of people need to be trained to a standard and/or for someone who simply is not going to go anywhere beyond the bare minimum of a fighting method to use for their own defense (in this, it is like the FAS [Fairbairn-Applegate-Sykes] method). For anyone that wants to go anywhere beyond basic fighting competency, though, I would recommend saving this training for some time when you want to look at something different like I did.
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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    C.R. what distances were you at? Did they ever get on the sites at all?
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    When I train (in classes) I can punch nice holes in paper all day long in the right places. I will do many reps on the Moving and Shooting drills as I can. It just isn't that hard to place bullets into a stationary target from a stationary position either straight up or behind barricades with a little practice. The harder things are movement of either the operator or the target or both and making hits when it is needed.
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    Because I'm a lefty, and I hate ambi safeties (broke two), when carrying my 1911A1 I use a modified Israeli draw.
    Coopers Condition III, rack the slide on the draw, point shoot.
    It is much slower and you need more distance with this method. That's why I went to the .357 snubby revolver for EDC.
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    Distinguished Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    i've done about 6 years straight of Krav Maga, and i'm surprised the israeli's would use something so stationary.
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    Senior Member Array JJVP's Avatar
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    This looks fast enough


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    Ex Member Array flaguns's Avatar
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    he's a goner, way too slow because they believe that carrying unchambered is better and moving is not for you to get a better shot, it is to make it harder for your adversary to target you.
    there are some excellent trainers right here in the US and on this forum who can teach you better methods than what is shown in that video
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    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with being "Condition Three" - carry like that and if you feel trouble a coming, then cock the gun. Condition one is great with a proper holster.
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    IMHO this is one of the finest videos ever produced on the subject--and it is still sold via Midway.
    The shooting methods becomes much less robotic as the tape progresses.
    The last part of the DVD covers applications and a lot of moving and shooting is illustrated.
    It also gives a very logical rational as to why the Israeli's favor the condition 3 carry method--which is geared to safety.
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    Good old vid that's been available for some time. When carrying my 1911A1 in condition III, I also practice a modified Israeli draw & rack, but do so as I'm moving. Point shooting if distance/time is critical. Switched to revolver & much faster.

    The Israeli method, I believe, was developed to train people from all backgrounds, languages, etc. while keeping them safe.
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    The Israeli method, I believe, was developed to train people from all backgrounds, languages, etc. while keeping them safe.
    Exactly.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    C.R. what distances were you at? Did they ever get on the sites at all?
    He kept us pretty close throughout, Harryball. Three to five yards, I think not much more than eight away. Given the nature of the course and the student group, it seemed appropriate for that time.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
    When I train (in classes) I can punch nice holes in paper all day long in the right places. I will do many reps on the Moving and Shooting drills as I can. It just isn't that hard to place bullets into a stationary target from a stationary position either straight up or behind barricades with a little practice. The harder things are movement of either the operator or the target or both and making hits when it is needed.
    This is true. But the method has worked for many there and in other places. Given the reasons it was developed and the groups and populations it was developed by and for, it does what it is supposed to do. I don't consider it something to run with if you're looking to fully develop yourself as a fighter, though.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    i've done about 6 years straight of Krav Maga, and i'm surprised the israeli's would use something so stationary.
    Considering the biggest group that is trained with this method, that being the Israeli military, it's not so surprising. Our line guys don't get diddly-squat for pistol training here, for example.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post
    This looks fast enough

    It probably is for most applications, JJVP. It is not as fast on presentation as other methods, however, even if he were not chambering a round in the process. I note that we did not run unchambered in the class. Furthermore, Tier One units in the Isreali military do not run unchambered. The practice has not filtered down to lower-level units at this time.

    Compare that to any other drawstroke and presentation and you should see a difference as long as each person has equivalent levels of training/practice/experience.
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