Old Guys Only
This is a discussion on Old Guys Only within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am left handed raised by a very flexible Father. If I wanted to learn to shoot I would do it right handed. That applied ...
April 20th, 2014 09:29 PM
Old Guys Only
I am left handed raised by a very flexible Father. If I wanted to learn to shoot I would do it right handed. That applied to Bowling and Golf also. Rifle shooting was all I did as a kid my Dad didn't own a pistol. he swore after WWII no more guns to hunt people. When I went into the Military I was taught the cup and saucer weaver stance. For fourty years this is what I practiced and perfected.
Today this is as wrong as you can get. Every instructor criticizes the whole way I shoot. Now most of them can not shoot as well as I do but that doesn't seem to matter. Just finished recertification for CCW and again the young instructor mentioned my stance and holding the gun. We talked for quite a while and he has seen the Elephant and we talked a little about that. Then we put some down range together him shooting my Sig 239 in 40 and me with my Glock 36. At 25 yards this kid puts seven to the head all in the one hole with ragged edges. I didn't do quite as well but still respectable. Then he says you could do a lot better if you were willing to change stance and hold.
Now my ego is bruised and I can't seem to let it go.
Have any of you more mature (older guys) put in the time and effort to change to the new stance and grip and perfect it? I shot 200 rounds the new way and I was not very accurate compared to my weaver stance. Looking for advice and experiences. Thanks
April 20th, 2014 09:39 PM
I can see what you are going through I haven’t changed my grip but I have always shot with one eye closed, I have been trying to teach myself to shoot with both eyes open. Everyone says that is the way to shoot now but I am having a hard time doing it and my accuracy has suffered somewhat. Haven’t had anyone criticize me though, yet.
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
Hóka-héy! Crazy Horse
April 20th, 2014 09:41 PM
I dont lock myself into one stance or hold. I was born left handed. 1st grade teacher said it was a right handed persons world so I was converted by force to write right handed. I do some things left and some things right handed as a result.
I learned to shoot as a kid one handed. Right handed. But I also would shoot lefty at times. Now years later after being trained I still use whatever hold two or one handed that is best for what Im doing. I learned long ago that nobody does anything exactly the same way. And if you try to force them too or force yourself too you only make whatever task is being done more difficult to learn. Basics of a stance ok. This foot has to be here that one there and your hands exactly like this usually just over complicates the entire process.
You dont have to believe a train is coming. Itll run over you anyway.
April 20th, 2014 09:42 PM
I still hook my finger on the trigger guard with my weak hand. If it works for you , I would not worry about it. You will most likely fall back to what you have done most repetitively in a stressful situation.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
April 20th, 2014 09:52 PM
I will make the comparison for golf. There are instructor that will try to change the way you swing and your whole game goes to hell. If you know Jim Furyk, his swing doesn't follow the traditional golf swing, but he IS successful and comfortable with his method. If you are comfortable with your stance and shot pattern, find someone that works with your talents, not theirs.
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April 20th, 2014 09:58 PM
Brother... I still get small behind a carbine while holding the magwell, use a traditional low ready stance and shoot in a modified weaver. I am sure there are plenty of these new kind-of-kool kids with the over articulated high ready stance who spin a rifle to chamber check as much as they pull the trigger and execute the mandatory pirouette who can shoot better then me but as long as I am hitting the target, I dont really care if its a 3 inch or 6 inch group. I have always shot minute of palm size anyway.
Think like a man of action - Act like a man of thought
April 20th, 2014 10:00 PM
I am not sure how you are defining old and I have a lot less experience than many here, but I prefer a Weaver stance as well because I find it to be more natural for me and consequently I tend to shoot better using it.
With this said, I train with both stances and I have started to practice a fair amount of strong and weak one handed drills as well as some shooting from different positions to broaden my capabilities. I enjoy shooting and like to be accurate, but I know that I may not have the chance to use a preferred stance in any given self defense situation. Thus the need to train assuming different scenarios.
For the most accuracy, I have always been taught to do what works for you. From my perspective, if Weaver is working for you and you are satisfied with the way you shoot then why change?
I am sure we will hear some more technical answers soon and I am interested to hear what others have to say.
April 20th, 2014 10:11 PM
How you grip a pistol matters little if you are only doing slow fire. The thumbs forward grip is what most instructors are teaching today and it's used by virtually every action pistol competition shooter. The reason this grip is used is that it's superior for recoil control. So, unless you are interested in shooting both fast and accurately, no need to change your grip.
Stance, really just from the waist up, affects both recoil management and the ability to both quickly and effectively engage multiple targets in a wide arc without having to move.
April 20th, 2014 10:11 PM
I used an incorrect stance and grip for a number of years due to my participation in bulls-eye match shooting. I learned the 'modern technique of pistolcraft' at Gunsite from Jeff Cooper and hung in there with it until I was comfortable and proficient.
I think that if you can achieve practical accuracy, reasonable speed of presentation and of follow-up shots, and can do it with a pistol considered by your standards, powerful enough, then you needn't try to change much or at all.
If the above is not what is happening when engage in defensive pistol practice, then you should change your stance, grip etc.
April 20th, 2014 10:35 PM
To me, stances, grips, both eyes open, one eye closed, etc....Over the years, they all start to become sort of the Flavor of the Month. Honestly, shoot the way that is comfortable to you. Period. Take advice that works and throw away the rest. If you're comfortable and can hit what you aim at, then that's your stance. Don't try to force yourself to conform to something that doesn't work for you. Now, go out and shoot your way and have fun doing it!
"If you can do it, you damn well better be able to look at it!".....Matt Helm
April 20th, 2014 10:35 PM
I hear that every thing old is new again so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Bruised ego, your told to be worrying about these things grandpa!!! At your age you got more important things to worry about, like who's turn is it to pre-chew your prunes.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them.....well, I have others.
April 20th, 2014 10:42 PM
I switched to the thumbs-forward forward aggressive isosceles in my mid-fifties. Many thousands of rounds later, it serves me very well.
Originally Posted by manolito
"Ideals are peaceful. History is violent."
Don Collier, Fury
April 20th, 2014 10:43 PM
I shoot weaver and with revolvers use the tea cup and saucer. Use what works for you
"You are born. And you die. And if you are very lucky in between you get to ride motorcycles."
April 20th, 2014 10:43 PM
Old guys? Define "old" LOL!
Cut my teeth on an old, jacked around, well used Marine Corp issue 1911A1 back in the day. Shot better with that than anything I shoot with today matter of fact. Stance and hold didn't seem to be an issue to reenforce if you hit well with what they gave you. These days, I learn and adapt on my own, shoot in local matches to improve myself in ways, and conceal carry each and every day anywhere I go. I'm plenty confident with myself and the pistols I choose to carry. Being able to put 10 round in 4 seconds into a ragged one hole group is not as important as things like firing under stress, shooting at target with incoming rounds etc. The younger crowd, their teachings, and their mantra are just a product of the live fast and die hard world these days IMO. While I respect those with certain credentials in the shooting sports, or ability to school newbies in the new art of perfection on a static target. It's just not the whole picture, and some of the younger crowd is missing that. In ways, I think of it as sort of a prejudice when a younger fellow judges you as incompetent with your experience in pistology or whatever you want to call it. There is a gap just like with education as a whole. The new way might be the way to teach, but the old way of experience and survival speaks volumes. Lot of these younger folks take schooling, but they've never had the experience to apply what they've learned. Yet they want to put what they've learned to use on you? Many that will tell you how to become better have never relied on their schooling to survive an encounter with imminent death. Some of us have, and that's worth more than any school can teach or listening to an instructor who's never gone a day without showering or clean clothing before battle. Old is a concept. Being old fashioned and set in your ways should seldom be subject to question. There are things to learn from time to time however. Just take the input for what it's worth. Guys with experience do it better, and if that means being old, then so be it.
The world is a dangerous place, made more dangerous by a willfully ignorant populace who mindlessly go about their day to day existence without thinking, questioning, or considering the possibility their leaders are corrupt lying thieves.
Washington DC? DC stands for District of Corruption
April 20th, 2014 10:51 PM
I'm 69, but I came late to pistol shooting. Isosceles was just making inroads, and classic Weaver was giving way to Chapman-Weaver (strong arm straight). I sort of go back and forth between Isosceles and Chapman-Weaver.
But: if you can make consistent head shots at 25 yards, your current technique is working well for you.
I have been helping people with their bowling technique for years, and there are a few things I can tell you about making changes. Firstly: few people are actually willing to put in the time and practice necessary to change their (bowling) form. The temporary degradation in performance is hard to accept, and this is what stops most people. They'd LIKE to get better, but would rather remain at their current skill level than be worse while they make the change. "This new way feels unnatural/weird/strange". Well of course. You've been doing things one way for years. ANY significant change would feel weird. It might take a year or more to feel comfortable. Can you accept that? And the new way would make the most difference when firing rapidly. In slow fire, it won't make as much of a difference.
Fortunately, I believe that moving the support hand from underneath the gun butt to wrapping it around the strong hand is not too great a change. Just make certain to apply some pressure with the support hand and fingers, otherwise the change in position won't do you much good in controlling recoil.
If possible, try to have more frequent, but shorter shooting sessions. 50-100 rounds, rather than longer practices at longer intervals. Dry fire practice can be VERY useful in this case. The more often you can practice just holding the gun the way you want to, the faster it will begin to become automatic, and feel natural and 'right'.
If it were me, I'd try to make the change. In your current technique, the support hand is contributing virtually nothing to recoil control. In the new, "correct" technique, you should be able to reduce your split times (the intervals between one shot and the next) significantly.
Finally, consider having a coach of sorts. This doesn't have to be a paid, world-class shooter, just someone somewhat knowledgable to watch you from time to time, and keep track of you from an outside perspective.
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