Training for civilian encounters
This is a discussion on Training for civilian encounters within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I want to preface my remarks by saying I have and will only spend my hard-earned training money with those instructors who have REAL world ...
May 19th, 2014 02:35 PM
Training for civilian encounters
I want to preface my remarks by saying I have and will only spend my hard-earned training money with those instructors who have REAL world experience. I think this insures that you get tactics, techniques and procedures that have actually worked in the field. Now to get down to brass tacks. Once you get past the basics of firing a pistol(stance, grip, sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze etc)the follow on tactics don't always mirror the actual encounters a civilian may deal with. This is not a knock on military-trained instructors, they pass on what they know and the realities of where and who they operated against. However, civilians in the unlikely event of needing their weapon against an armed opponent will be dealing with way different scenarios than military folks. My question is why are we not training civilians for those type of encounters exclusively? Things like close range encounters that factor in surprise, H2H techniques that may be necessary before you can access your weapon, edge weapons etc. This type of training in my opinion is more practical and will put a better-prepared armed citizen on the street. Thoughts ?
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May 19th, 2014 02:35 PM
May 19th, 2014 02:44 PM
Interesting you bring that up because I honestly took it for granted that I train those skills regardless of whether I have a gun and relied on them exclusively prior to carrying. I wholeheartedly agree that we should train for the arena we are going to work. The biggest changes I see in how I would need to handle a situation is how I continue to get my family to safety WHILE deploying my weapon and if things get too close to deploy, how I make sure I keep from getting disarmed if it goes H2H. In a way, carrying a gun for me makes me less effective as I have to worry about that until I can find an IWB holster with good positive retention that I can trust. Even then, there is that possibility that I'll get disarmed and have my gun used against me, or worse, my family.
... evil will always triumph because good is dumb! - Dark Helmet
May 19th, 2014 04:59 PM
First I'm not sure just what is meant by "real world experience" but I would point out that plenty of "tip of the spear" groups are trained by shooters who have never heard a shot fired in anger and never been in a fight in their lives. But they are some of the best in the world at teaching others to run guns and make good shots. With that out of the way, plenty of trainers do just exactly what you are talking about. Ayoob, for example, deals very much with that sort of stuff, as do many others. Why don't all do it exclusively? Because they want to run a business, and a business needs customers. A very large part of the fairly limited training audience wants classes that teach them to run an AK like a Speznaz officer, or be an Urban Warrior, how to get off the X like a genuine official contract operator, and so on. Personally I recommend folks run like blazes any time they see things like "warrior" or "4-gun master" or "martial arts" or assorted other code words with firearms training.
As just one example, I'm familiar with and have worked with a group that is run by a couple of Israelis who say (and I tend to agree) that their basic course is really the one everyone should take if they are concerned with getting through a typical civilian encounter. Lots of surprise stuff, lots of distractions (try shooting one-handed while another guy lying on the ground tugging on your off-hand repeatedly) and most stuff up very close. But if that was all they taught they'd go broke. Far more people sign up (and pay more) for other classes with far less practical use. But you have to put food on the table.
May 19th, 2014 05:03 PM
There are many companies out there that have multiple courses that take you from basic to advanced CCW, Close Range Gunfighting, Disarming, shooting on the run to cover and even medical help. I have taken multiple courses in the last 5 years that focus on portions of each of these tactics including Force on Force and shooting from my SUV. It would be really hard and expensive and time consuming to do this all at once. Folks that have a good knowledge of gun handling, shooting and trouble clearing techniques generally start with the more advanced courses. Me, I am now retired, building my retirement home and keeping skills honed up. I started shooting IPSC in the early 1990's and got a CCW license the first month they were available in my state. Then over the years I developed skills (with help from others) that translated and improved my ability to learn more from the Gun Fighting Courses I have taken. Two day courses that rack up 700+ rounds can teach you alot of good tactics with the many reps on the training module being taken. No it is not cheap, but my life is worth it and those of my loved one's.
Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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May 19th, 2014 05:21 PM
There are people out there teaching the things you're talking about. (Suarez and Yeager are the first two that pop to mind, but there are others.) Both have some real world experiences, but both are teaching things far different from what they did when they were going into harms way professionally.
Simply put, if you want to seek out SF, Seals, etc. to train with you'll learn some amazing things. But people know what they know, and that's what they're going to teach. If I had to go to war with 6-8 other guys a lot of them would be at the top of my list of guys to go with. However that doesn't always translate to a lone person fighting a thug for their life. Sometimes you have to make a choice between people that have seen the elephant and those that have not, but have invested a lot of time and energy into understanding what you're likely to see and how to best solve that problem.
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
May 19th, 2014 05:27 PM
old grunt you are so right about training for the real world. Somebody goes to rob you chances are he is to close to bring your gun up to full presentation. What do you do? I started taking classes from an ex-marine (sorry there are no ex marines, once a marine always a marine) forgot that my buddy reads this and he will let me have it again. But this guy teaches all manners of shooting; close to very close. Learned that you could strike the side of your attacker's throat with the edge of your weak hand and draw, fire from retention at your side and place two shots in the groin area very fast.
This is only one portion of the class. Hours and hours of different situations. Everyone should find a local training class if possible. They aren't cheap but worth the money. Wish they were cheaper then I'd go more often.
Practical Firearms Training - Pat Goodale
Last edited by Navydude; May 19th, 2014 at 05:30 PM.
Reason: Where I train
May 19th, 2014 05:38 PM
The training is there, you just have to go get it.
TDI's ECQ and Shivworks ECQC are both highly recommended.
The biggest problem is that "most" CCW Practitioners don't want anything beyond the state required minimum.
Hand to hand skills are not something that you can really get good at in a single 8 hour class etc.
Edited to add:
RangeMasters in TN is another good soruce, they have 60+ students that have "won" armed encounters on the streets of Memphis.
Kelly McCann in VAis another good source as well.
May 19th, 2014 05:41 PM
I'm not sure if my input is worth anything but I will throw out what I do. I have been around a long time been in the military, deputy, international detective agency, training officer for a casino security staff and a retired federal officer. I do not want to become stale and knowledge is power so from time to time I take a class to make sure in these times that I am still able to protect myself and my family and walk away in one piece and have my family safe. I have been referred to several people but I do a check on them and talk to people who have worked with that way I stay currant with a lot of things and changing defense styles to fit my age and also my weak areas. I would rather do training one on one or a very small group that way I can pinpoint my flaws and overcome or modify.
May 19th, 2014 05:47 PM
Old Grunt, none of my classes revolve around gun-foo run and gun stuff. People who come to me are every day working class people with concerns for personal safety. Classes are small, I don't do it for my living, so I can take more time to evaluate their everyday needs and cater a course very closely related with their every day reality.
The training industry is a business. They depend on their clients to buy in to their philosophy which is animated and sensationalized to create a feeling that it is money well spent. The old saying " if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS, is alive and well in this industry. The cash has to flow.
I agree, most people need a completely different level of training. Practical training for practical people, living normal lives.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
May 19th, 2014 05:57 PM
Gman, I have to agree. Seems most "training" courses I see try to be at a SWAT or assault team level.
You can come down here and teach me a few things, There's no "run & gun" left in me, more like "Shoot it out where I stand." Drinks are on me--until the bourbon runs out.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
May 19th, 2014 06:24 PM
In addition to the "national" level resources that Echo_Four, JD, and Navydude already pointed out, there's also similar offerings by Mike Pannone, Vickers, Thunder Ranch, and Redback One, just to name a few.
Also, I would highly encourage interested students to look *_LOCALLY_* as well. There are a lot of very highly qualified instructors out there, and typically, on local/regional-level Forums, there's going to be a few training-heavy folks who can direct those who are seeking instruction in the right direction. For civilian self-defense techniques and tactics, I've received a lot of really good stuff from instructors who are active or were former Corrections, Law-Enforcement, or Military Police.
May 19th, 2014 08:13 PM
Very interesting subject. I took some classes from a city detective who was a magnet. If there was a shoot out or a fight he was always there. Just how it went. His classes were simple day to day survival and the gun was the last resort.
I am a firm believer in the best skill to have is awareness of your surroundings and leaving when you see something that puts your hair on end. It would be great if we could come up with a weekly thought like lets say surviving a ATM confrontation. We have so many talented people that could pass on survival skills they have learned over the years. I have no civilian real world encounters to draw experience from. Mine are all military based. I am not sure that is worthless in that it taught me how to deal with the dump of drugs from your brain and overcoming the flight response and I know I am capable of looking at the elephant and doing my part.
Great topic hard to believe it came from the Airforce.
May 19th, 2014 08:28 PM
The topics I scroll thru on this forum really makes you stop and think "What if". Most of the time it is news about a shooting somewhere or home invasion but why not take it one step further. Good suggestion manolito. And since this is a democracy lets nominate you for the first thread on surviving a confrontation. no pressure.
Pick a situation that is realist and see what happens.
May 19th, 2014 08:41 PM
When I do a consultation with someone, I want to know what their concerns are and why. I want to see what they see on a daily basis. Where do they park their car, what it looks like where they walk, day or night, and pics of other areas they may encounter.
I have them make three or four 8x10 photos of the areas.
When you put these pictures together with 5 other peoples photos, you have some great multi scenario real everyday life scenarios to use. During class instruction, these prove very useful in discussion and problem solving. Most of the solutions for necessary prevention and SD techniques are found right here before ever popping a cap.
It determines best weapon/s , method of carry, and gives the student a different perspective.
Funny thing is, I have found that for almost every single scenario with this technique, a j frame in the pocket with the hand already in a firing grip is the best way to go. I have actually had people either trade in their hi cap autos , or just buy a j frame after they walk thru and various scenarios created for them with their current carry weapon.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
May 19th, 2014 09:09 PM
If most people went to the real classes that they really needed no none would go. They would be so boring! What would you learn? Stay away from people that make you nervous. If your girlfriend is still going through a nasty divorce what would be the best way to keep both of you safe? Stay away from her! Park in areas with cars nicer than yours. Walk in groups. Etc....
Doesn't this sound like the stuff your mom told you? DR
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