Tac Trainers that don't compete. Would you...

Tac Trainers that don't compete. Would you...

This is a discussion on Tac Trainers that don't compete. Would you... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I might actually take a defensive class some day and was snooping around this area for grins. I wonder how many of these instructors compete ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Tac Trainers that don't compete. Would you...

    I might actually take a defensive class some day and was snooping around this area for grins. I wonder how many of these instructors compete in the practical games? I wonder how many of these teachers are teaching stuff that competitors found inferior 30 years ago? You Tube is full of yahoos that can't shoot, but they're out there teaching a pistol class. While I don't disagree that defensive training is more than shooting fundamentals, "shooting" is part of it and some of these wads can't demonstrate the basics.

    I find it a little funny when some of these trainers talk about a revolutionary new concept or recent discoveries, and it's something competitors have been doing for years. Dry fire, "point shooting", and shooting on the move are just a few that come to mind. Anyone that's shot much competition and practiced can tell you, at what distance shooting on the move becomes a crapshoot and at what speeds. Where it works, for "competition" and where it doesn't. Not the same as a gunfight, but at least it's a baseline. It seems like some of these guys are so far behind in the skills department that I'm surprised that they would shoot on camera or in front of anyone. On the other hand, I hear some don't.

    So the simple question is... Would you take a class from someone that didn't compete? Please save your shot timers don't exist in a gunfight argument for another thread. Getting an IDPA marksman classification on the instructors resume doesn't really give me the warm fuzzies either. Thoughts?
    TY54712


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Reading your post it is obvious you compete so you seem biased in that direction. I have been looking for training and it is tough to find people who are "qualified". However, I am of the opinion most trainers, good or bad, will have SOMETHING I can use. Just because I take a class doesn't mean I have to do everything they teach once I go home.

    The answer to your question is yes, I would take a class from someone who doesn't have a competitive background. To me, the two are separate. I am more interested in tactics (ground fighting, gun grab defensive techniques, fire under stress, contact fighting/weapon use, etc) and I can't get that from competition.

    Just my $.02.

    P.S. "Never seen a stopwatch in a fight"..........Clint Smith
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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Yes. In some circles, those "competition shooters" are not thought very highly of.

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    There's something to be said about competition shooters who do well against targets that don't shoot back.
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    I would rather have an instructor that teaches proper use of cover, than one who teaches minimum cover required for IDPA.

    I compete to sharpen my skills and to practice, not to game. I get as much of me behind cover as possible, not just 51%.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

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    JD
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    The big issue I see with this is that competition is a game.

    Let me say that again. It's a game. There are things you need to do to win that game that have no bearing on any thing of importance in a self defense situation. I've seen a lot of people that I know can out shoot me do poorly in IDPA simply because they don't care about IDPA rules.

    The same goes for USPSA.

    If I'm looking to take a class that is billed to improve my performance in a game, yes a high rating in that game will matter. If not I'm looking for other criteria.

    Does competition experience hurt? Heck no. But it's not something I will require.

    Being able to think, move, srategically plan a stage etc are all good things to be able to do but everything needs to be in context.

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I don't disagree, but I'm not a very good person to ask, because I think "training" should be for the VERY advanced, and 99.99% of people should master shooting before adding Tactical Tommy stuff. Firearms training is an industry, just like scuba, or anything else. It's a market driven, money making operation, and you should not forget that. They're selling a product, and that product is designed to sell. What happens afterward is the least of their concerns.

    However, one could say the same thing about competition shooters. Why take a class from someone who has only practiced, trained, and played games? Wouldn't you prefer to learn from someone who has used a firearm in an actual firefight? How about someone who has been in combat and is a trained teacher? I would think that Army SF guys would be about the best instructors there are in this regard (and that's coming from Squididge).

    Then again, look at Massad Ayoob. He has been training defensive firearms tactics for forty years, and the most he can boast is being a part time cop...and yet... He is rightly considered a venerated, elder statesman of defensive carry.

    I just don't think you can put too fine a line on it. Wisdom can come from the likeliest or unlikeliest of corners, and great teachers can be inexperienced operators. You just have to be discerning on your own, and decide what's right for you, which may certainly not be what's right for someone else.

    I totally believe in Mass' edicts and training for most people. Much of what he teaches isn't right for me though, but that doesn't mean it isn't right. There is no black and white, especially in the most fluid of all human endeavors (killing each other).
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    Beat me to it JD.
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    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

  9. #9
    JD
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    To further clarify, I would not hesitate to take a class from Ben Stoeger, or Mike Seeklander, Bob Vogel etc. Ad far as shooting goes, but if I want to learn and improve close range empty hand / armed self defense I will not let the lack of competition experience of Southnarc or Cecil Burch stop me from attending.



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    Join the Marine Corps and ask for an 0311 MOS. You will get all the practice you need at duck and cover, moving and shooting. Granted, it will be mostly with an M4........ (I'm being sarcastic as usual).

    Serious: Train the best that you can. Go with what you know. Your life might just depend on it some day.
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    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    I would rather get training for fighting from an instructor that has been in a fight(s). USPSA and IDPA are great, but they have very little to do with a BG stepping out of the shadows and pointing a pistol at your head.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I know plenty of guys who've been in plenty of fire fights who are not all that super duper with a handgun too.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    I know plenty of guys who've been in plenty of fire fights who are not all that super duper with a handgun too.
    I was thinking the same. Pistols are not anyones first pick in combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    The big issue I see with this is that competition is a game.

    Let me say that again. It's a game. There are things you need to do to win that game that have no bearing on any thing of importance in a self defense situation. I've seen a lot of people that I know can out shoot me do poorly in IDPA simply because they don't care about IDPA rules.

    The same goes for USPSA.

    If I'm looking to take a class that is billed to improve my performance in a game, yes a high rating in that game will matter. If not I'm looking for other criteria.

    Does competition experience hurt? Heck no. But it's not something I will require.

    Being able to think, move, srategically plan a stage etc are all good things to be able to do but everything needs to be in context.

    Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.
    The things I learned with our real-life instructor friends at TDI have saved my bacon not once, but three times in the last year alone. Had my training been received at the hands of a gamer instead, my outcomes likely would not have been nearly as favorable.
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    Senior Member Array Pinot's Avatar
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    In all training one should eat the meat and throw away the bones. Never stop thinking for yourself.
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