Should a shooting proficiency test be required for a CWP? - Page 5

Should a shooting proficiency test be required for a CWP?

This is a discussion on Should a shooting proficiency test be required for a CWP? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wasn't actually refering to buying a gun, but toting one out in public. As for violating your 2nd Amendment Rights, those have been trampled ...

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Thread: Should a shooting proficiency test be required for a CWP?

  1. #61
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    I wasn't actually refering to buying a gun, but toting one out in public. As for violating your 2nd Amendment Rights, those have been trampled on already. For example let your spouce or kid simply accuse you of domestic violence, write a check and make a mistake, some judge that signs the CCW permit not like you, there are many ways that your 2nd Amendments have already been violated.

    How ever if you whip out a gun in the local mall and start shooting to defend yourself you NEED to know how to use it.

    Edited by Tangle

    There is a big difference in owning a gun, toting a gun and knowing how to use it under stress. We will never be able to replicate a real life gun fight in class but the more training we have the more prepared we will be for that encounter should it ever come.
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  2. #62
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    They've already done that Ex. We just don't want to admit that our 2A right is no longer a right. It is nothing more than a state enforced and regulated privilege now.

    How quickly we forget that before we got the state granted privilege to carry, it was illegal to carry a gun period, in all but a few states. At that point the 2A had been totally abandoned. What we got in it's place was a state granted privilege. All it would take is for the wrong politicians to get into office and simply vote to abolish CCW and we'd be right back to the days when we couldn't carry.

    Requiring someone to demonstrate safe gun handling before they buy their first gun is a far cry from violating the 2A. It's simply a measure to help new gun owners safer.

    If 'they' want to prohibit ownership of certain weapons, they will. They don't need a safety requirement in place to do that. Remember the Assault Weapons Ban?

  3. #63
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    November 2007 may screw us all. There are no real pro 2nd amendment guys running unless Newt actually runs.
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  4. #64
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    S'CUSE me while I just WHIP THIS OUT! (Blazing Saddles)

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    I wasn't actually refering to buying a gun, but toting one out in public. As for violating your 2nd Amendment Rights, those have been trampled on already. For example let your spouce or kid simply accuse you of domestic violence, write a check and make a mistake, some judge that signs the CCW permit not like you, there are many ways that your 2nd Amendments have already been violated.

    How ever if you whip out a gun in the local mall and start shooting to defend yourself you NEED to know how to use it.

    Edited by Tangle

    The point is many have no idea what it is really like to use a handgun in a dynamic and stressful situation. Those that do seek this type of training and perform well have a far better chance of success than those who have no clue.

    There is a big difference in owning a gun, toting a gun and knowing how to use it under stress. We will never be able to replicate a real life gun fight in class but the more training we have the more prepared we will be for that encounter should it ever come.
    That entire scenario is INSANE. Sorry I don't mean to sound harsh, but I'll bet the guy who thought that one up lands in jail and bankrupt after all the lawsuits and fines. Of course it is UNSAFE!

    You can't begin to compare our elite military and SWAT LEOs to the average American who CCWs. Those units only get to practice those dangerous combat related activities after literally THOUSANDS of hours of highly intensive training....as in nonstop days and nights. When I was on active duty I participated in activities such as that. We threw live handgrenades into the mix as well. Sometimes even C-4. Folks did get hurt and even killed in those exercises.

    I maintain the best way to simulate that sort of stress for the average American shooter is IDPA competition. TIME v. ACCURACY v. TACTICS and a problem solving scenario. All in a controlled and SAFE environment. I feel safer in an IDPA match than I do on the roads driving to and from the match which is a fact of life I have to deal with because I cannot control it. Nor do I wish to add the levels of control out there that would allow the government to artificially impose it's vision of "safety" on me. I've been lawfully armed under CCW permit in various states continusously for 29 years. I know my strengths AND my limitations. I have full confidence in my abilities. I don't need to know anybody elses abilities and they don't "need to know" mine.

    Ex,
    I edited out the part you refer to both here and in the orginal post. I agree with you 100% and left your response in tact.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #65
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    Wink No MAJOR Contender that are pro gun but there are a few who could get that status....

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    November 2007 (8?) may screw us all. There are no real pro 2nd amendment guys running unless Newt actually runs.
    Brownback is progun, so is Tancredo and his stand on illegal immigration may be enough to draw voters from the ranks of the Democrats and independents to win. Ron Paul is SUPER Pro-gun. Hunt is progun. Just because it seems like the race is JULIE ANNIES or MCCLAME's for the asking means ZERO. The voters don't know these other folks. Just wait awhile.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Tangle, and everyone else I agree that our 2A rights have been trampled on. However it is not because some haven't fought it with everything they have. My dad has been progun and a member or the NRA for as long as I can remember and has stood against any legislation that would hamper our RIGHT!!!! I do agree with you that we need to know what we are doing. I don't want to seem adversarial to anyone here. I just don't see how we could enact anything without further eroding what rights we have left. We are all on the same side here.

  7. #67
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    I also have done what FIREARMZ was talking about... it was nuts, but you learned a few things in that exercise. There was another one the same day that was even more intense, but I'm not going to take the time to spell out how it worked, it won’t be believed anyway.
    The guy who did this is now dead, so no jail time for him.


    My Jerry Springer Final Thought on this goes as such;

    Firearms ownership is a right; we have allowed CCW to become a privilege.
    No matter what side of the fence you are on, right or privilege, both come with great responsibility. It comes down to you to educate yourself on the training needed to carry that weapon. Some will need more than others; all will need more than the state mandates. It is clear that some of us have had a lot of training, most have had none. The posts that are made on here make that very clear to me. Those who have had none are a danger to the rest of us in more ways than one. Those who are or will be a problem don't understand this, because they have had no training. It a circle that needs broken.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #68
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    Tangle, there are 20,000 gun laws on the books nationwide. The only ones that actually reduce crime are those that allow CCW. Otherwise I'm against adding layers to any of those simply because it adds to the levels of government intrusion where it's unwanted and unneeded. For example, have you compared the voluminous piles of statistics that show the hit ratio in police shooting to civilian gun use for self defense? The civvies have a hit rate on the BG that is ELEVEN TIMES HIGHER on average! Now, I'd like to see the stats on civilians who hit innocent bystanders in their self defense cases. I'll bet it's nonexistant. Why? Well, the BG gets to choose the time and place of his attack which is usually where there's nobody else around to interfere or be a witness. Your mall scenario is more apporpriate to a terrorist attack and that's another issue completely!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #69
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    There are reports of civies shooting themselves and others accidentally all the time. It happesn enough that there are classics - "he shot himself/someone while cleaning his gun." Another is "I didn't know it was loaded." Ignorance plus a gun doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

    Maybe we need to ask ourselves, "Do we really want someone that knows nothing about a firearm to have one or especially carry one?"

    I'm glad for anyone to own a firearm, but I would much prefer they demonstrated to someone, sometime in their life that they know how too safely handle it.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I also have done what FIREARMZ was talking about... it was nuts, but you learned a few things in that exercise. There was another one the same day that was even more intense, but I'm not going to take the time to spell out how it worked, it won’t be believed anyway.
    The guy who did this is now dead, so no jail time for him.
    Then shame on you and thank you for not providing details!

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    ...No matter what side of the fence you are on, right or privilege, both come with great responsibility. It comes down to you to educate yourself on the training needed to carry that weapon. Some will need more than others; all will need more than the state mandates. It is clear that some of us have had a lot of training, most have had none. The posts that are made on here make that very clear to me. Those who have had none are a danger to the rest of us in more ways than one. Those who are or will be a problem don't understand this, because they have had no training. It a circle that needs broken.
    I thought that needed to be emphasized and well worth repeating. My position exactly!

    The only problem is, a person is willing to buy a gun. He is not willing to learn anything about it. How many times do you suppose somebody has bought a gun, taken it home, loaded it, put it in a sock drawer and that's it?

    Add a curious child to that scenario and.....

  11. #71
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Ex you don't have to apoligize, we are all entitled to our own opinion. I also did not intend this to become a flaming war. I did not recommend that anyone go do this, merely that there is a significant difference in training methods. This class we were in was not your everyday law abiding CCW people. It was a very advanced tactical pistol class and yes most had thousands of hours of training already.

    So don't get it out of context, I did not say all people should do this or take this type of class.

    Someone had posted this and deleted it or something:

    Edited by Tangle - The part I deleted adds nothing constructive to the context of this thread. What you had quoted here was my response to your earlier post. Since I deleted that part of your post and references to it, my post became superflous.

    I would much appreciate not seeing any of it again.

    Thanks for your cooperation.


    As for IDPA and IPSC, I shoot them often and enjoy them a lot but they are not training. Practise maybe but defenitely not training.

    Again for those of you that get the idea that I was saying everyone should do this, that is not the message.

    As for things being stupid, walking around with a gun and not having any training is stupid.
    Last edited by FIREARMZ; February 9th, 2007 at 11:54 AM.
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  12. #72
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    This is the test i'll have to do for my CHL if i go to that Range:

    The following is the actual shooting exam:
    Twenty shots will be fired from 9 feet:
    The first exercise will be fired in (5) stages. One-shot will be fired during each stage. The shooter will have 2 seconds to complete each shot.
    The second exercise will be fired in (5) stages. Two- shots will be fired during each stage. The shooter will have 3 seconds to complete each stage.
    The third exercise will be fired in a single stage. This is a five-shot exercise. The shooter will have 10 seconds to complete this stage.
    Twenty shots will be fired from 21- feet:
    The fourth exercise will be fired in a single stage. This is a five-shot exercise. The shooter will have 10 seconds to complete this stage.
    The fifth exercise will be fired in two distinct, continuous stages. The first stage will be fired as a (2) shot exercise. The shooter will have four seconds to fire this stage. The second stage will be fired as a (3) shot exercise. The shooter will have six seconds to complete this stage.
    The sixth exercise will be fired in (5) stages. One shot will be fired during each stage. The shooter will have 3 seconds to complete each shot.
    The seventh exercise will be fired in a single stage. This is a five-shot exercise. The shooter will have 15 seconds to complete this stage.
    Ten shots will be fired from 45- feet:
    The eighth exercise will be fired in two distinct, continuous stages. The first stage will be fired as a (2) shot exercise. The shooter will have six seconds to complete this stage. The second stage will be fired as a (3) shot exercise. The shooter will have nine seconds to complete this stage.
    The ninth and final exercise will be fired in a single stage. This is a five-shot exercise. The shooter will have 15 seconds to complete this stage.
    Reasons for Failure on the Shooting Range
    Firing more shots than instructed to, or firing before the "fire" command is given.
    174 or less total points scored on the exam.
    Unsafe conduct: horseplay, accidental discharge, gun pointed anywhere other than down range, incompetence with the handgun or unable to maintain control of yourself or the handgun.
    General Information
    The shooting exam will consist of 50 total shots, yielding a maximum perfect score of 250.
    With respect to the "Standard B-27" CHL range qualification target, every shot placed inside the "8" ring (the second concentric circle-center of mass) will be credited for 5- points. All 50- shots in the "8-Ring" = a perfect score of 250 points!
    Any shot that is placed in the "7" ring (between the first and second concentric circles) will be given 4- points.
    Any shot place outside the "7" ring, but still on the body, will be given 3- points.
    Missed shots, or shots not registered on the "body" zone, will yield 0 points each.
    When all shots are counted, a score of 175 (70%) or greater is required to pass the shooting test.
    On the "Standard B-27" target, "X" marks the spot" and will be your aiming objective. This is the "bull's-eye" (the absolute concentric center of the rings) of a B-27 target.
    The closer to the center of the concentric center (the numbered rings) on the target that you shoot, the higher your score will be.
    Each missed shot, whether due to malfunction or otherwise, may not be made up.
    If you have a jam or malfunction, safely clear your weapon, and then continue the shooting exercise.
    Otherwise, each missed shot will be deducted from the total score at the time of grading.
    Absolutely do not load your handgun until instructed to do so.
    And, do not fire your handgun until instructed to shoot.
    A verbal "fire" command will be given to indicate when it's time to shoot.
    When your time has elapsed on each stage, a verbal "cease- fire" command will be given.
    A stage is a timed shooting sequence.
    The time will elapse silently. In other words, we will not go into a countdown mode between "fire" & "cease- fire" commands.
    An exercise, quite simply, is the total number of stages in a shooting sequence. For example, a (5) stage exercise of 1-shot will require the shooter to fire a single round, five separate times. In other words, the verbal command will be given to "fire" [1- shot] "cease- fire", "fire" [1- shot] "cease- fire", "fire" [1- shot] "cease- fire", "fire" [1- shot] "cease- fire" and "fire" [1- shot] "cease- fire".
    Any shot taken after the "cease- fire" command is given will be counted as zero points.
    Any shot taken before the fire command is given will result in an automatic failure.
    Fire only the appropriate number of shots between the "fire" and "cease- fire" commands.
    Firing more shots than required by a stage will result in an automatic failure.
    Firing fewer shots than required by a stage will result in a deduction of points equal to the number of shots missed multiplied by 5 points. In other words, 2- missed shots missed equals ten points deducted.
    After each exercise, when the last shot has been fired:
    Drop your magazine (or open the cylinder).
    Ensure the slide is locked back (or the cylinder is visibly open).
    Lay the gun down on the table in front of you and wait to be instructed to reload and/ or continue the exercise.
    Only one magazine will be allowed on the range for the proficiency exam.
    Your aiming objective will be "center of mass". Headshots are to be avoided.
    Other than the firing line, make sure your handgun remains safely unloaded.
    Students have a maximum of 3 failed attempts per class before having to return at a future course to try over again.
    Safety is our number one priority- please make it yours!
    Any unsafe or potentially hazardous conduct will result in the automatic ejection from the class.
    Is this the normal test for texas? seems kinda excessive.
    "Only hits count."
    Jeff Cooper


    Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    most definitely....

    you haveta pass a driving test, you should haveta pass a proficiency test.

    they should be more difficult, and more encompassing.... you haveta parallel park, for cripes sake, why shouldnt you have to show SOME skillz with a gun?

    this is for CWP only, i should say. i have no suggestions as to how to present this in all fairness for everyones right to keep/bear arms. a whole lotta overhaul is needed of the present system before i would even bother trying to figure out a system... i imagine it'd be like some people having a commercial driving license vs the ordinary operators license.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    As for things being stupid, walking around with a gun and not having any training is stupid.
    one MILLION ++++++++++

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by briansmech View Post
    most definitely....

    you haveta pass a driving test, you should haveta pass a proficiency test....
    Here's the difference. Driving is a privelege and always has been. What makes it a privelege is you have to be approved and licensed by the 'state'.

    Gun ownership and the right to be armed is a RIGHT. A right is something that we have an inherent right to. But, our right to keep and bear arms is now a privelege and now in order to carry a gun we must be approved and licensed by the state or it is illegal - that's not a right.

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