Aiming vs's Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Aiming vs's Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; sometimes it just takes me some time to be able to express it LOL You are going to have to learn to say what you ...

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Thread: Aiming vs's Point Shooting

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    sometimes it just takes me some time to be able to express it LOL
    You are going to have to learn to say what you really mean. I mean, I was here for a good five minutes before you told me your thoughts on point shooting.

    Five whole minutes....... you slacker.

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  3. #17
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    Sweatnbullets...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    You have some excellent advice...very informative...too bad you don't live in FL...

    ret
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Yea sweatin , i do admit i gotta work on that bashfull issue LOL .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    It is not necessary to add all of these tools to your box. But the knowledge of them all, helps facilitate better accuracy in the ones that you decide to keep. Your brain will take in the information and use it without you even realizing it.
    Hope you guys don't mind if I quote myself.

    In my last course with Oregonshooter, he asked me if he would instinctively know what he needed to see to get the hits by the end of the course. I simply said "yes." He kind of looked at me like "how can you be so sure?"

    About five minutes latter we were pushing the limitations on "metal and meat." I believe that he was at six yards, which is pushing the technique. His hits were just too good, so I asked him what he saw. He got a little exasperated with himself and admitted that he had begun to "align down the slide" by accident.

    That was the last time he asked me if he would instinctively know what he needed to see.

  6. #20
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    I wish I had the paitence and wordsmith skills to type all that out like Sweatn did, 'cause its an awesome post.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #21
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    Talking

    As a forum Moderator I can honestly say that when I come back onto the forum & click on "New Posts" and spot the two words "Point" and "Shooting" in a thread title and then see that the last post bears the other two words "Redneck" and "Repairs" ~
    I know that I have a responsibility to click on that thread first.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Honestly folks All of the instructors here could teach me things , and as old in the game as i am i hope they would learn from me also , IMHO there are a lot of " tactikewl " instructors out there , most dont even visit this board , and them that do dont last long . If you can train from someone offering training here its a dammed fine start on your journy , not an end , but a dammed fine start .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    lol qk its sweatins thread i b good because he is .

    Edited to add : parden the shorthand , i am watching man v wild now , and i still want to see how the serria nevadas are " some of the roughest terrain in the usa " . so far this survival fella is failing all the tests .
    Last edited by Redneck Repairs; March 16th, 2007 at 01:43 AM.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Below Line of sight
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Visual input

    When it comes to vision, I see things a little differently than a lot of other people. There is the necessary visual input to make the shot (see what you need to see) and there is another aspect of vision that people tend to ignore. I believe that the subconscious mind will choose the height and the extension of the gun due to the amount of visual input that the brain will require to solve the entire problem.

    The visual information the the brain requires is as follows

    The ability to make the hit.
    The ability to ID the threat.
    The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
    The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
    The ability to have a field of vision to manuver through and around obstacles.
    The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
    The ability to eliminate visual interference and negative visual input.

    In my opinion, the dynamics or the chaos of the encounter will dictate the height, the extension, the positon, and whether you use one hand or two hands, in regards to your HG. This is why I feel so strongly about the ability to shoot throughout your drawstroke and from every angle and position. It is my opinon that this natural act (the subconscious mind picking the best position of the handgun so that the brain can take in the necessary visual information) is a much better idea than a conditioned act (always bring the gun to line of sight) that is not as well rounded or versatile and has many negatives connected with it.

    I think that the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop. I could introduce anyone, to their natural ability to do this in a day or two.......and you would own that natural ability for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance.

    I believe that natural abilities should go hand in hand with your conditoned abilities. If your conditoned abilities fail you (such as not being able to get to your line of sight) your natural abilities can take over. All your bases are covered due to being wellrounded, you just keep rolling right along.......as opposed to being flat sided.


    The "below line of sight" phenomenon is something you will see again and again on dash camera footage. It is very common to see LEO's, that have no training in this skill, using below line of sight shooting when the action is close, fast, and they have found themselves behind the reactionary curve. The gun is often seen held at the mouth/chin level.

    I believe the post above explains why we see this so often. Since we see this time and time again, I believe that we should embrace this response and make it work for us. Since the ability to make fast and accurate hits with the gun below line of sight is a very simple and effective skill, it is my opinion that we all should understand it and why it is so.

    The more visual input that is remove from the gun the more important it is that we understand how our bodies "index" onto the targeted area. The human mind, eyes, and body align things for us all of the time. It is extremely effective in this regard, due to the fact that it does it thousands of times a day.

    Here is something that I came up with to help the newbies, doubters, and naysayers understand all of the things that are accomplished to get fast and accurate hits while shooting below line of sight. For the people that already do this, this will seem to complicate thing. There is no doubt that there is nothing complicted about this at all. This is as simple as can be and is all achieved at the subconscious level. But understanding and accepting these basic concepts will make you a better target focus shooter.

    Ten Elements of Target Focus Shooting

    Target focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why target focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

    There are many elements that go into accurate target focus shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

    First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

    (1)Kinesthetic alignment
    (2)Sight alignment
    (3)Sight picture

    This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.

    Now let us look at the elements of target focus shooting.

    (1) Understanding and ability to square up.
    (2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.
    (3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."
    (4) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline or as 7677 calls it, the nose index.
    (6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.
    (5) Kinesthetic alignment.
    (7) Use of peripheral vision verification.
    (8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.
    (9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.
    (10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

    When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why target focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why target focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural ability.

    There is a lot of misconception out there that target focused shooting and especially FAS, is stance or position dependent. This is just not the case. "Shooting to Live" "Kill or Get Killed" and "Bullseyes don't Shooot Back" cover the basics of threat focus shooting, nothing more.

    The basics elements are as follows,

    (1) Understanding and ability to square up.
    (2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.
    (3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."
    (4) Understanding and ability to use a body index.
    (5) Kinesthetic alignment.
    (6) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

    The advanced elements take threat focus shooting to a whole other level, this is where you begin to make hits from any position, from any angle, with no conscious thought. If you can see it, you can hit it.

    (1) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline, or what 7677 calls, your nose index.
    (2) Use of peripheral vision verification.
    (3) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.
    (4) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

    The tenth element (absolute confidence) is the key and the ultimate goal. You can never reach your full potential until you a firm grasps of the basic elements and an absolute understanding of the advanced elements.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    he ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
    I am going to take exception to this statement , The ooda loop you MUST control , and movement is only a factit of that , You can aid your control by " shooting on the move " but unless you have analised your opponent , and have built the skills to exploit the weaknesses you see then movement is only a placibo . Dont get me wrong moveing is better than not ( assuming lack of hard cover ) but it in and of its self is not any answer either . #1 is recognise your situation . #2 is react to it . #3 is cheat on the fly... there is no fair gunfight .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  12. #26
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    This thread is killing me, I'm going to sleep before I get caught up in it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    oO( six is a lightweight ?? )
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  14. #28
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    Yeah, I am. I just got home from work, point shooting is my favorite topic... I got to get up early to take the kid to the Dr., then another 10 hr shift. I'll join in tommorow at some point.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Ok six just for you ( ya wuss ) I will officaly request that this thread remain posted , so yall can read it at your delicate sensibilitys . We love ya bud , and get some sleep in there somewhere .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  16. #30
    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    WOW..... I'm glad that I asked the question! Its amazing what you can learn from reading, I just hope that I can digest it all and work it into my tool box! Sweatn & Redneck.... you guys need to visit Va! lol
    Alex G.
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    Virginia Beach, Va.
    Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
    Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
    NRA Range Officer

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