Aiming vs's Point Shooting
This is a discussion on Aiming vs's Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is a point shooting home study course that I wrote a few years back.
March 16th, 2007 08:11 AM
March 16th, 2007 09:51 AM
One of the guys in our local club has made arrangements for Gabe Suarez to come to Salt Lake in May and teach the Close Range Gunfighting and Interactive Gunfighting classes. I’m signed up for both. Will Gabe cover the concepts you talked about as part of these classes?
I sure hope he does. It looks like an excellent opportunity to add some more tools to my toolbox.
"A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill
"He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber
March 16th, 2007 10:25 AM
Flippinstk it is a good question.
My advise is do not over-think or over-complicate the training and read these texts...
Key points to remember...
- Point shooting is an adjunct to, not substitute for, sighted fire.
- Point shooting IS aimed fire.
- One can quickly gain knowledge of Point-Shooting and the time and money invested in maintaining these skills are much lower. Let us face it; even police do not train for a living only professional instructors do.
- It is all-inclusive and depends mainly on the distance involved. Therefore, it is not “hip shooting” as some would believe.
Take Care and Stay Safe,
Administrator Integrated Close Combat ForumREMEMBER
– What works for you may not, necessarily, work for me. Keep an open mind!
March 16th, 2007 10:44 AM
It seems to me that everything covered on the mechanics side, thanks to sweatnbullets and Mr. Temkin. I just scanned through the article posted by Mr. Temkin, it looks pretty good.
The issue I want to bring up is why this is important. I remember a thread on here a few months ago when point shooting came up. I was surprised how many thought that point shooting was dangerous, or otherwise a bad idea.
In a CQ gun fight, and most of them are, if you draw, present, line up the sights, press and fire you are far to late. Chances are your dead or on your way to being so.
As a CCW'r in a defensive situation, you are already behind when the action starts. The BG already has his weapon out and maybe firing on you. You need to draw from concealment, line up the sights and fire.
Why? You don’t need to do all that. As soon as you clear your body, that muzzle should be on target and rounds moving towards the BG. There is no reason why everyone can’t master this. It is controlled and it is very accurate at close distances.
You point at objects all day every day your entire life. Why is it so difficult with your pistol? Its not.
I teach that as soon as you muzzle is past your body, arm still tucked into your side, fire the first shot. Then as the pistol comes up as you get into a proper firing position, the pistol reaches about chest level and fire shot two. Then you’re in a proper position and your upper body is leaning forward, proper grip etc., there is no reason you should not be able to hit COM on any target inside of 10 yds, further if you’re good.
To demonstrate this, I have a G19 that I have taken the sights off of. Just an empty dove tail on the back, and a small screw hole on the front. I'll put three targets out at varied distances all in the range of 3 out to 15 yds. I'll draw, fire my first two shots COM in the closest target, and move one to the rest in less than a second or two. If I feel like showboating and I'm shooting well that day, I'll do head shots just to make my point clear.
Then I'll show my pistol, a standard G19 with no sights at all. It gets peoples attention. They will toss the lasers in the garbage, and start training in pistol craft instead of "range craft".
I do not advocate that point shooting or instinctive shooting takes the place of traditional shooting, and it is an advanced technique, but it’s a technique critical to surviving a CQ gun fight.
Last edited by SIXTO; March 16th, 2007 at 01:06 PM.
Reason: I made up a word again...
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
March 16th, 2007 10:46 AM
Thats some good solid advice KG59. Nice addition to the thread, thanks.
Originally Posted by kilogulf59
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
March 16th, 2007 12:02 PM
RR, I may need to reword that sentence of my post. What I am trying to say is that we must recognize our position in the OODA loop in comparison to the adversaries. Most likely we are going to begin an encounter from behind the reactionary curve. The adversary has the initiative and is inside of our OODA loop and we are reacting to him/her. The goal is to turn that.
I am going to take exception to this statement , The ooda loop you MUST control ,
How we turn that around can be done several ways, explosive movement and ballistic effect are two very good ways. What we need to be able to do is to have the ability to see when/where we move from a reactive position into a dominant position. By seeing the change in initiative, we can adjust our tactics to something that may end the fight earlier, once we hit the dominant position.
We may start the fight from a startled reaction that has us moving diagonally to the rear. The ability to see the switch in initiatve may have us ending the fight while moving aggressively towards the adversary.
A "Fluid Situational Response" as I have written about before.
Last edited by Roger Phillips; March 16th, 2007 at 12:18 PM.
March 16th, 2007 12:17 PM
Harold, Gabe and I have been networking ideas and concepts since very early 2003. I have also taken four course with him including CRG and IGF, Our stuff is conceptually alike but not exactly the same.
Originally Posted by Harold Green
I took his outstanding IGF course and that course put me on the path that I am on today. I sought out and trained with the top point shooters in the nation (7677, Matt Temkin, and Robin Brown) to apply their expertice to the pieces of the puzzle that were opened up to me in Gabe's IGF course.
So, some of what I speak of is in Gabe's course. I was brought in as a "Specialist" instructor for those (just like me) that want the very most out of the concepts that you are introduced to in CRG and IGF. My course is focused on the ability to be the very best that you can be in regards to point shooting with dynamic movement, in low light, and to those with physical limitations. As my title says....I am a specialist, while Gabe focuses on a much bigger picture.
Our courses dove tail together beautifully. If after your courses with Gabe, you find yourself wanting more in this direction, try to host a course for me. I promise a growth in your new found concepts.
Hope that answers your question.
Last edited by Roger Phillips; March 16th, 2007 at 04:09 PM.
March 16th, 2007 12:37 PM
This really is not the individuals fault. Not only do "they do not know what they do not know." But there has been a huge push by the "always use the sights" establishment to make anything else look dangerous.
I was surprised how many thought that point shooting was dangerous, or otherwise a bad idea.
In my course, with my advanced students, I push them as far as I've ever heard of before. We push each skill to it's absolute limitations in regards to speed of the draw, speed of the shot, speed on the trigger, speed of the movement, out of a reactionary situation, and of course distance. At the end of each drill the student absolutely knows the limitations and where the skills absolutely excel. The proof is when the patterns begin to open up. So we are not happy until the patterns open up.
Even with all of this "pushing the limitations" my average student hit rate (the adversary soaking up hits to the torso or head) is around 98%. Just think my last student shot 4200 rounds in two days while being pushed as hard as someone can be pushed on a square range and he only missed 2% of the time.
Hardly dangerous or a bad idea!
There is an old Modern Techniques saying "you will only be half as good in a life threatening encounter as you are on your best day at the range."
WELL YEAH! Especially if you do not train in a realistic manner. My students and I train in a realistic manner. We train within the physiological responses to a life threatening encounter.
That is key!
March 16th, 2007 12:59 PM
That you recognize the value of threat focused skills and where they will likely fit into a SD situation on the street is the first step on the journey. It shows an open mind to this which will eventually lead you to training with any number of instructors in the country who can impart various threat focused skills to others.
If the time/distance equation allows one to find their front sight, use it. I don't believe that will usually be necessary at the distances SD situations normally develop on the street for civilians and I prefer not to take the time [ no matter how little time it may take ] to make any sight verification when I know it is not necessary to make combat accurate multiple COM hits.
Once you have these skills, you'll have many more options available to use and more importantly, perhaps, the confidence to use them without having to think about it, knowing your true physical capabilities.
March 16th, 2007 06:14 PM
Sixto..the method you described is really what it is all about.
Some call it zippering, some call it vertical tracking and others call it shooting through the drawstroke.
Whatever the term keep on doing it.
March 16th, 2007 08:28 PM
More on below line of sight
The very easiest way to understand the need for below line of sight would be from the "contact ready." The contact ready is a position where you have a very likely threat but the ID has not been made well enough to shoot yet. This would mostly be a LEO ready, but will easily show the need for below line of sight for everyone.
Give this a try.
Unload your gun and double check that it is unloaded. Stand one yard from a mirror and point in at your reflection, at line of sight. This gives you two yards from your reflection. Notice that your hands and gun block the view of the adversaries waist band and possibly the hands. Obviously, this is very bad!
Now lower the gun while keeping it indexed on the targeted area until you can clearly see the waistband and hands of the adversary. For me this is four to five inches below line of sight. By taking the gun out of your face you are able to take in the needed visual input for the encounter.
Now back this up to two yards (that makes four yards to your reflection). You will notice that the gun does not have to be lowered as much to see the waistband and hands. For me it is two to three inches.
Now step back to three yards (six yards from your reflection.) My gun only needs to be below line of sight one to two inches to see the waistband or the hands.
While this is an extremely simple example, it is still a very good example of why the ability to make hits fluidly from below line of sight is a very important one. The necessary visual input of this little test is a perfect example of the neccesary visual input of an encounter, whether it be static or dynamic.
The ability to make the hits from below line of sight are laid out in "the ten elements." Most important would be visual centerline, parallel to the ground, peripheral vision verification, and the confidence in knowing exactly what you are physically capable of. This will very quickly lead you to the hand/eye coordination that makes point shooting such an excellent tool.
Anyone can do this and when you can, you need to be able to do it from the holster, from the low ready, and with movement.
Last edited by Roger Phillips; March 16th, 2007 at 08:41 PM.
March 16th, 2007 09:03 PM
Mid Point and Count Three
Mid Point and Count Three (as soon as the hands come together in the four count draw stroke.)
Now that everyone is up and running on target focus shooting and everyone is completely confident, it is time to move into the "being able to make hits anywhere in your drawstroke." We now take away more of the visual input, by coming in and down. The peripheral verification of these skills is now reduced to no more than "verifying that you are on your visual centerline." This is what prepares the students for the zipper and the hammer.
All of the ground work is done, it is really as simple as applying the exact same concepts at different positions. Shooting at mid point and and count three are excellent skills and are a form of retention shooting. If there is a proximity or time issue the ability to get hits anywhere in your drawstroke is an extremely valuable skill to own.
My students are basically told where to "draw to" and that is basically it. The looks of amazement on their faces as they are exploring the limitations of these skills is really astonishing. This is the point in the course that they simply can not believe the things that they are doing. They often praise me, as if I did anything, but introduce them to their own natural ability. The students are so excited at this point, that they work these skills over and over, because thay can not believe what they are doing. I have consistantly seen my student, from the midpoint, out to seven yards, with hand span groups. I have seen the same with count three out to five yards. This is with people that have never use target focus in their life and after only about 2-3 hours of training.
We now put all of these two handed techniques to use in zipper drills, hand/eye cordination drills, hammer drills, transitioning back to the sight drills, and multiple drills.
March 17th, 2007 11:50 AM
OK, you guys have now scared the heck out of me. I have had experience in the military years ago, and do practice at the range regularly, but this is obviously not sufficient. Unfortunately, from the websites I have visited, I seem to have missed the basic tactical handgun classes offered in Florida. I would love to take a course, in Florida, that, among other skills, teaches what you all have been discussing on this thread. Any suggestions?
March 17th, 2007 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ron
Ron, I am looking to take my course on the road. If you can secure a range and help with logistics, you could host me to come out there. I have had a number of requests to come to florida....just no one that could host the course yet.
As the host you would get to train for free.
March 17th, 2007 05:02 PM
I would love to do that, but I don't know of any ranges in my area that I could secure for the course. If anyone else in Florida does so, please be sure to let me know.
Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
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