Aiming vs's Point Shooting - Page 5

Aiming vs's Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Aiming vs's Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I basically consider targets 7yds or closer as point-shoot targets. I can pretty much place a round within a few inches of where I want ...

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Thread: Aiming vs's Point Shooting

  1. #61
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    I basically consider targets 7yds or closer as point-shoot targets. I can pretty much place a round within a few inches of where I want it by point shooting. Targets further out get a clear front sight picture before the trigger breaks.

    In the military we were taught to get a shot off as soon as possible after drawing for "shock factor". This may scare an attacker and/or give you the time needed for follow up shots or to escape. Makes sense in a way, but I have a bad habit of getting my support hand up before shooting. Guess that's what I shoudl be working on, but there's no way I could get away with that at a local range here!!!


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Guess that's what I shoudl be working on, but there's no way I could get away with that at a local range here!!!
    I have heard this mentioned many times. Being out here in the desert, I do not really have that problem.

    For those with this problem, I could not possibly recommend a good airsoft gun more. My KWA G19 cost me $115 dollars three years ago and I consider it one of the wisest training investments that I have ever made.

    Click here and go to "gas guns." http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/index.htm

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    I practice both aimed fire and quick draw / point shooting when I go to the range.

    I think it is best to have a good skill set for both. You never know what the situation will call for.
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  4. #64
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    The points that I teach in my course are as follows.

    (1) Line of sight
    (2) Nose level
    (3) Mouth level
    (4) Chin level
    (5) Mid point (of the draw stroke)
    (6) Compressed ready (count three)

    Peripheral vision verification is very important here. Seeing the handgun on your visual centerline, seeing the gun indexed on the focal point, very close to parallel to line of sight will have a very definite “look.” This peripheral vision index is a huge part of the hand/eye coordination. It is also a continuum that changes due to elevation and extension. At the beginning levels, taking mental note of your peripheral vision index helps cement you hand/eye coordination.


    Once the shooter has the nose level down, we move onto mouth level and then onto chin level. The concepts are the exact same, wrist articulation due to elevation, basic geometry, and peripheral vision index. This is all a continuum that will solidify your hand/eye coordination and have you move onto the next skill set, which is shooting from mid point of the draw stroke and the compressed ready.


    An excerpt from the narrative of the registered copyright pistol quick kill technique which I wrote back in 2004 and registered with the library of congress as "Handgun or Pistol Quick Kill [ QK ] Shooting Technique" ©

    Find a light switch across the room. Any object at about that distance will do. Then with the light switch or object in your view, raise your arm/hand and point your finger naturally at the object, like you are scolding a dog. Looking at your target, you also should be able to see in your peripheral vision, the end of the finger that's pointing at it.
    When you point, you naturally do not attempt to sight or aim your finger. It will be somewhat below your eye level in your peripheral vision, perhaps 2-4 inches below eye level. ,
    which describes what Roger has reiterated above mentioning the "nose, mouth and chin levels which he learned as Quick Kill and the use of peripheral vision based on the narrative I wrote and where it was mentioned for the first time in print anywhere, as well as him physically learning that skill in the Tucson class.

    Now this requires a very slight bit of wrist articulation, as you lower the gun you must articulate the wrist slightly upward. How much wrist articulation is the question and this is where the all important hand/eye coordination is really nailed down.

    From an article I wrote on 08-22-2006 here about "The incredible wrist" and wrist articulation:

    http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...credible+wrist

    where I noted in the above linked article that:

    The wrist was being used as a lever without conscious thought on his part to keep the rounds as close to each other as possible on the threat. His rounds were grouping near 3 inches at 12 feet in rapid fire with considerable arm speed while it extended out and moved to different planes of height throughout.

    Seeing the skills I have used for 26 years, presented by myself publicly for the first time in print and subsequently registered and copyrighted with the Library of Congress for copyright protection several years ago, now being rewritten and reiterated here without recognizing the original authors work and the source of the knowledge presented is disturbing at best.

    I'll let the members come to their own conclusions where this material is concerned but feel compelled to set the record straight here. Admitted violations/unauthorized use and particularly profiting from my registered copyright materials which belong solely to myself without express permission is taken very seriously.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 5th, 2007 at 01:52 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  5. #65
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    There are only so many ways to shoot a gun. None of this is new....been around since hanguns were invented.

  6. #66
    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    All I've got to say is that you guys are all great. THe info that you've all shared is priceless and I hope that I can retain just a portion of what I've read. I really had NO idea that when I started this thread that I would what was shared. FREE OF CHARGE! WOW.... SWEATN, you know your craft and I wish I lived closer. My hats are off to all of you that do this for a living and I'm glad that I'm a member of this site!@
    Alex G.
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    Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
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  7. #67
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    Exclamation AzQkr - Sweatnbullets

    See the quote below by Flippinstk?
    Especially the part that read:
    "My hats are off to all of you that do this for a living and I'm glad that I'm a member of this site."

    Please Read Also This: "All I've got to say is that you guys are all great."

    Notice The "you guys" (plural) ????


    Also Note This: "The info. that you've all shared is priceless and I hope that I can retain just a portion of what I've read."

    That (above) is EXACTLY what we are after here on CombatCarry.com

    Please keep all thread posts directed toward that ultimate goal.

    Anything else is counterproductive to both of you.

    Additionally the Moderators just cannot "Mop Up" and edit because we simply cannot or will not research possible Copyright Infringement Violations in order to properly edit a forum thread post.
    We are not going to do that.

    That leaves the Moderators with 2 realistic and workable options.

    (1) ~ DELETE every post following and including the first where things get pissy.

    (2) ~ Close the entire thread and send it to the Rogues Gallery which would be a great disservice to the entire CombatCarry member base.

    So keep it friendly. Go back and police yourselves and use your respective post edit feature
    to change things around enough so that you're both not trespassing in each others backyards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flippinstk View Post
    All I've got to say is that you guys are all great. THe info that you've all shared is priceless and I hope that I can retain just a portion of what I've read. I really had NO idea that when I started this thread that I would what was shared. FREE OF CHARGE! WOW.... SWEATN, you know your craft and I wish I lived closer. My hats are off to all of you that do this for a living and I'm glad that I'm a member of this site! @
    Last edited by QKShooter; April 5th, 2007 at 07:56 PM.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  8. #68
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    Post CountDown To Bye~Bye Entire Thread

    10 - 9 - 8 - 7 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - Two - The rest is up to both of you.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  9. #69
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Oy Gevalt.
    I will make this very clear...
    Either my eyes are focused on the target ( with ZERO reference to the sights and/or weapon parts) or...
    I am focused on the front sight.
    And this pretty much sums up what Fairbairn was writing about.
    It really is that simple.
    I am glad that Brownie has posted the paragraphs that I was alluding to.
    Now it is time for the lurkers to decide what is what.

  10. #70
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    Please ALL keep in mind that when you are attempting to introduce members to any form of shooting methodology then the least complex manner in which it is all presented the more readily it will be absorbed and accepted by our general population.

    I realize that their are serious sticking points between you both but, there is just no practical way to resolve them publicly on CombatCarry and still keep our membership focused on the forum thread topic.

    When things start traveling too far off on idiosyncratic tangents and legal technicalities then folks just completely turn off to all of it.

    Situational Avoidance on a Internet Thread Forum.
    Just FYI - that is what our member base starts practicing when things get too Technical/Personal/Heated/Complex.

    That is because the vast majority of our members don't want to get "in the middle" of anything.

    Our members are mostly all HERE and strongly dedicated to CombatCarry because they Don't Like the crap that happens on most every other Gun Forum.

    Please everybody keep that in mind.

    Bumpers desire to keep his house in order AKA Decently Peaceful and Highly Respectful will always trump any individual forum thread or any individual members.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Thank you QKShooter

    One Handed Shooting

    In the past Matt Temkin has remarked on the need/benefits/versatility of one handed shooting. The more and more that I have worked with necessary visual input skills, the more I see exactly what he was talking about.

    FSA is an outstanding entry level skillset into the world of one handed shooting. FSA is very much entrenched into the "vertical lift" concept. Many people look at the vertical lift and decide immediately that FSA is not for them, because it does not work within their "default drawstroke". This would be a huge misconception and a serious mistake in my humble opinion. Even if you are not going to integrate the verical lift into your tool box, knowledge of/work with the vertical lift is a very good idea if you want your point shooting skills to be all that they can be. The vertical lift helps begin to establish your hand/eye cordination and the hand/eye cordination is one of the most valuable and advanced skills of point shooting. Once you have the knowledge of and the work with the vertical lift, you can then decide if it has a place in your tool box. Each individual should look at their specific situatuion and make that decision for themselves. It has a place in my tool box and I am a huge supporter of the linear default drawstroke.

    I teach one handed shooting both ways, from the vertical lift and from the default drawstroke. This makes my students more well rounded. They can use the vertical lift when the gun is in the hand and at the low ready (some people still love the low ready.) They can also make hits throughout their one handed default drawstroke as 7677 likes to teach. This is an excellent start to the concept that Matt and 7677 have always spoke of, the concept of making hits throughout your drawstroke and from any angle or position. This versatility leads to a great deal of confidence and confidence is key when things are happening at such fast pace that you are solving problems at a subconscious level. Solving problems without conscious thought, as the recent story by Steve Holden portrayed, should be the ultimate goal for all that are serious about their training.

    Along with the "linear" default drawstroke, one handed shooting can be used to break students away from the concept of stance or plateform dependence. The basic of pointshooting is basic geometry....but that is only the starting point. I use the one handed shooting to break my students of the need of that basic geometry and get them into the eye/hand cordination part of the course. One handed shooting is introduced from a number of different position, straight ahead from the FSA crouch (which does have it's place due to the bodies natural reaction to crouching in a life threatening encounter,) while facing at a 45 degree angle to the right and left of the target, and while facing to a 90 dgree angle to the left and right to the target. The concept is to draw straight to the target and make the hits. This breaks the student away from the need of the linear drawstroke and the basic geometry. It also helps facilitate the hand/eye cordination and does a very good job of preparing the student for the movement portion of the course.

    All of these positions are worked at the appropriate amount of extention and height for the appropriate distance, Half hip limitations are usually pushed from two yards out to four or five yards. Three quarter hip limitations are usually pushed from three yards out to seven yards. Point shoulder (One handed, line of sight FSA pointshoting) limitations are usually pushed from three yards out to ten yards. Understand that these distances are exploring the limitations of each skill. The optimal distances are closer. But once again this works off of the "establishing confidence" and "finding the limitations" concept.

    I have found that the one handed skills are essential to the dynamic movement portion of the course. I am also seeing the absolute need for these skills for fighting at night.

    It has been a facinating journey!

  12. #72
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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  13. #73
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    Flippinstk;

    Quite simply, pointshooting skills still make use of aimed fire. Aimed fire is utilized in both threat focused shooting [ or pointshooting ] as well as using MT/front sight press/both sights to aid in hitting what you want.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  14. #74
    Member Array Dave James's Avatar
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    ALL RIGHT EVERY ONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH!!!.

    Come on guys we are almost back to the same piss'en match that has got us barred form other sites.

    EGOS are a necessary evil, but lets calm down,

    This is one of the very reasons I prefer not to teach,{ will speak to any one by phone}.

    Hell I should have my nose bent out of shape, other than MATT ,any time he uses it {EU/ED}, the explanation hardy mentions me or my mentors who brought it out of obscurity.


    One of my favortie sayings ,others have adopted speaks volumes

    "Its just another tool ,in the tool box"

    Train in what you want, when you want, but don't shut out training that has saved hundreds of lives.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave James View Post
    ALL RIGHT EVERY ONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH!!!.

    Come on guys we are almost back to the same piss'en match that has got us barred form other sites.

    EGOS are a necessary evil, but lets calm down,

    This is one of the very reasons I prefer not to teach,{ will speak to any one by phone}.

    Hell I should have my nose bent out of shape, other than MATT ,any time he uses it {EU/ED}, the explanation hardy mentions me or my mentors who brought it out of obscurity.


    One of my favortie sayings ,others have adopted speaks volumes

    "Its just another tool ,in the tool box"

    Train in what you want, when you want, but don't shut out training that has saved hundreds of lives.
    Sad to say, but one of my students has been writing a lot about hip shooting, EU/ED in several police trade magazines yet fails to mention the source--which is Dave James--in any of his writings.
    Dave..when you decide to teach I will be there with my gun, ammo and credit card handy.
    Those who fail to give credit--especially if they themselves have no combat experience--make me hang my head in wonder.

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