Aiming vs's Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Aiming vs's Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have found that the one handed skills are essential to the dynamic movement portion of the course. I am also seeing the absolute need ...

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Thread: Aiming vs's Point Shooting

  1. #76
    Member Array kilogulf59's Avatar
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    I have found that the one handed skills are essential to the dynamic movement portion of the course. I am also seeing the absolute need for these skills for fighting at night.
    Here here Roger, and not to mention a multitude of other things you'll need that free hand for...

    With regards to close-combat work, I feel, one-handed skills really take priority.

    Very nice write up SNB - thanks (again)
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    Howdy Dave,

    Funny you should mention that, my daughter (practicing EU/ED outback) just asked me "who was the guy who told you about this"? I told her to get her notebook and it was the printout of the description you sent me awhile ago.

    Maybe you have ESP or your ears were ringing...Cus we-ins wuz a tulkin' 'bout ya'll Pard....
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    Take Care and Stay Safe,
    Ken

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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Here here Roger, and not to mention a multitude of other things you'll need that free hand for...

    With regards to close-combat work, I feel, one-handed skills really take priority.

    Very nice write up SNB - thanks (again)
    Thank you sir!

    The Support Side Arm

    Inside of a fight the support side hand can be very important and it can be used in a manner that it is doing much more important things than just "supporting" your firing platform. It can be used for the following.

    Striking

    Fending

    Blocking

    Parrying

    Using other tools (flashlight, asp)

    Help facilitate balance

    Help facilitate dynamic movement

    Help facilitate explosive move off of the X

    Help facilitate cutback or directional changes

    Help facilitate the tactile ability to maneuver around or through something when you are threat focused

    To counter balance and help stabilize your one handed shooting platform

    One handed skills are a must for those that want to be well rounded and versatile. Do not limit yourself to needing an important asset to just support a firing position.

  4. #78
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave James View Post
    ALL RIGHT EVERY ONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH!!!.

    Come on guys we are almost back to the same piss'en match that has got us barred form other sites.

    EGOS are a necessary evil, but lets calm down,

    This is one of the very reasons I prefer not to teach,{ will speak to any one by phone}.

    Hell I should have my nose bent out of shape, other than MATT ,any time he uses it {EU/ED}, the explanation hardy mentions me or my mentors who brought it out of obscurity.


    One of my favortie sayings ,others have adopted speaks volumes

    "Its just another tool ,in the tool box"

    Train in what you want, when you want, but don't shut out training that has saved hundreds of lives.


    I agree with DJ when we argue it makes us look like a bunch of

    On the issue of EU/ED, I'm guilty on not mentioning DJ's name every time I use the term but it should be known that when asked I give full credit to DJ.

    I'm have been also guilty of raising the in the past. However, when I post something on an open forum, it is to help people and teach them the necessary skills to survive a deadly force incident so I should be happy that people think enough to use the technique even if it was taught to them by another instructor. Once posted, the information is free to be used be anyone.
    Last edited by 7677; April 8th, 2007 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #79
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    Guys, it's pretty much to the point where no one can post a thread about shooting, tactics, training, etc. without 'trainers' pickin', tearin', and scrutinizing it to death.

    It seems that in an effort to promote the 'best' method, we loose sight of the fact that most that read our posts haven't had and won't take our perfect tactical shooting course, but will read that 'this' is 'the way' it should be done and go off with that in their head that that's the way they're gonna do it - sans training. You don't have to be a trainer to figure out the danger there.

    Then there's the fact that's missed that even if some do training that they can't continue when they get home because their range(s) won't allow it. That leaves them with the 'air soft' avenue. I thought that was pretty good until I read a post, by a 'trainer', that made me realize just how dangerous air soft training can be. Air soft, like video games actually train us that if that didn't work the way it was supposed to, we try something else with our 'new' life. In the real world, with real guns, you may only get one chance. It is of little consolation to me that I shot the BG 15 times throught the heart and he's dead as can be, while I lay dying because he 'accidentally' got one round through my heart.

    There's been enough 'discussion', to put it mildly, to cast doubt on the integrity and sense of every trainer that has contributed to this thread and other threads.

    We now pretty much know everyone's position, and what they teach and what a dominant force they are in the training world, so do you think we need to repeat this discourse again? That's a rhetorical question just in case you didn't realize it.

    Point shooting vs sighted fire will be finally settled when the 9mm vs .45 debate is and that's probably gonna be when hell freezes over and I don't see any signs of that.

    I knew as soon as I saw this thread that the heat was gonna come. But I was a little surprised that it came in the form of point shooting vs point shooting.

    There are successes with all types of shooting and I'm quite sure that if I never had his or his or his training, I could prevail in a gunfight with the training I do have.

    For myself, I'm very weary of the "my method is better than your method" and the 'tag-teaming' that goes along with it.
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  6. #80
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    Close up I use point shooting but further out its back to the sights.This combination works great for me.
    This pretty much sums it all up.
    In other words, there is no either or debate.

  7. #81
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    I'm gonna rephrase this; if you missed my original - good.

    I deleted a number of inappropriate posts. This is a good thread; let's keep it that way and stay on topic. Maybe we tone down just a little while we're at it.

    Thanks,
    Tangle
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  8. #82
    Member Array kilogulf59's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    AMEN and thank you Tangle. Normally I don't care for censureship. However, way too much would be lost if you didn't do it. Tough call and kudos Sir.
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    Roger,

    No problem and thanks for the partial listing. It does make one stop and think of the value on one-handed shooting. Though for some it is obvious, for others they may now see the light, hopefully, and try and work it a little. heck, I'm not a pro and even I have found that it seems that you'll use one hand more than two in the non-range enviroment.

    I quoted you just to "bump" the points you made, so no one misses them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Thank you sir!

    The Support Side Arm

    Inside of a fight the support side hand can be very important and it can be used in a manner that it is doing much more important things than just "supporting" your firing platform. It can be used for the following.

    Striking

    Fending

    Blocking

    Parrying

    Using other tools (flashlight, asp)

    Help facilitate balance

    Help facilitate dynamic movement

    Help facilitate explosive move off of the X

    Help facilitate cutback or directional changes

    Help facilitate the tactile ability to maneuver around or through something when you are threat focused

    To counter balance and help stabilize your one handed shooting platform

    One handed skills are a must for those that want to be well rounded and versatile. Do not limit yourself to needing an important asset to just support a firing position.
    Take Care and Stay Safe,
    Ken

    NRA Member
    Administrator Integrated Close Combat Forum

    REMEMBER What works for you may not, necessarily, work for me. Keep an open mind!

  9. #83
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    kilogulf59,

    Thank you. There have been no less than three warnings about inappropriate content in this thread and what was gonna happen. What has happened, a few deleted posts, is minor. That's more tolerance than normal for CC.


    And some other reasons a support hand may not be available:

    Holding/protecting/guiding a child, spouse, etc.

    restraining a dog

    helping a wounded/injured person

    an injured hand, either unrelated to the fight or as a result of the fight.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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  10. #84
    Member Array kilogulf59's Avatar
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    Tangle, again nice call and thanks for the additions to the list.

    As some of the fellows can verify, I take notes and this is going into them.

    Keep up the good work as CC is one of the few forums I still visit.
    Take Care and Stay Safe,
    Ken

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    REMEMBER What works for you may not, necessarily, work for me. Keep an open mind!

  11. #85
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    Thanks for the encouraging remarks. CC is one of the few I visit too. We will keep up the good work.
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  12. #86
    hso
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    I have sponsored a couple of point shooting courses. I have seen people with significant initial skills and people with minimal initial skills learn to make quck accurate hits drawing from the holster while moving in just 2 days of instruction.

    I've seen it done both one and two handed.

    I consider point shooting to be another tool in the toolbox that has valid uses at close range under pressure.
    Last edited by hso; April 9th, 2007 at 03:15 PM.

  13. #87
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    The same thing happens in sighted fire classes, but the point is, those that take classes improve their shooting skills be it point shooting or sighted shooting.
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  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    The Value of One Handed Skills with Dynamic Movement

    If you can not hit the targeted area, just about as well with one hand as you can with two, then two handed shooting may be your only option during dynamic movement. But this limitation may cause limitations inside of your dynamic movement skill set

    If you have good one handed skills, these skills really shine inside the "dynamic" portion of the movement continuum. The support side arm and hand can be used to help facilitate the following.

    The support side arm can be used to help facilitate the explosive move off of the X (pumping of the arm), to increase speed (pumping of the arm), for balance, to improve your ability to make directional changes, to fend off, to help negotiate through, along, or around, and most importantly as a counter balance and stabilizing force.

    On the counter balance and stabilizing force, this is the same principle as the way a Cheetah or Cougar uses its tail when it is moving dynamically. The support side arm is used in a natural manner to counter balance the extended handgun. It also stabilizes the handgun from the rolling of the shoulders and the slight twisting of the body that you get while you are running. It also mitigates the bobbing that comes from the impact of the feet on the ground. The use of the support side arm in this manner helps facilitate a more "consistent index" during your dynamic movement by "floating" the handgun. At logical distances this consistent index is so reliable that you can work the trigger as fast as you can with no need to verify that you are indexed on target in between your shots (great when you are behind in the reactionary curve and are fighting to take back the initiative.)

    Anytime that you have two hands on the gun, while you are moving dynamically, the body mechanics of this will make the handgun bounce more and move side to side more....like a big infinity symbol. With one hand, the gun can "float" better (less negative shock input from two separate sides of the body). You will be able to index on to the targeted area much more reliably. The added benefit of the support side arm working as counter balance and stabilizer is another huge asset.

    To test this, try this. From seven yards, with two hands, bring the handgun up to the line of sight, and focus hard on the front sight. Now run towards target and note the amount of movement across the targeted area (infinity pattern). Now try it with one hand with the support side arm held at the chest, note the movement across the targeted area. Now use it one handed with the support side arm used to facilitate smoothing out the firing side arm. This will be a natural swinging motion, but changes slightly due to the direction that you are moving. How to swing the arm is up to you, but remember this quote from Enos, "just pay attention and your body will figure it out."

    You will see that your handgun will have significantly less movement across the targeted area. So much so, that you are constantly indexed on to the targeted area at logical distances. This constant index moves you past the point where you need constant alignment verification. You can now work the trigger as fast as you can and you will make the hits.

    All of this is dependent on solid one handed fundamentals. If you are not accurate one handed while static, then you can not judge the technique of which I speak while moving dynamically.

  15. #89
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Four Elements of Accurate Shooting with Dynamic Movement

    There are four elements that I have found that helps facilitate being able to make hits with dynamic movement with a handgun. They are quite simple, but I am very surprised that they have never been written down before. My definition of accurate is inside of the thoracic cavity.

    Anytime that you have two hands on the gun, while you are moving dynamically, the body mechanics of this will make the handgun bounce more and move side to side more....like a big infinity symbol. With one hand, the gun can "float" better (less negative shock input from two separate sides of the body). You will be able to index on to the targeted area much more reliably. The added benefit of the support side arm working as counter balance and stabilizer is another huge asset.

    To test this, try this. From seven yards, with two hands, bring the handgun up to the line of sight, and focus hard on the front sight. Now run towards target and note the amount of movement across the targeted area (infinity pattern). Now try it with one hand with the support side arm held at the chest, note the movement across the targeted area. Now use it one handed with the support side arm used to facilitate smoothing out the firing side arm. This will be a natural swinging motion, but changes slightly due to the direction that you are moving. How to swing the arm is up to you, but remember this quote from Enos, "just pay attention and your body will figure it out."

    You will see that your handgun will have significant less movement across the targeted area. So much so, that you are constantly indexed on to the targeted area at logical distances. This constant index moves you past the point where you need constant alignment verification. You can now work the trigger as fast as you can and you will make the hits.

    The four elements are as follows.

    (1) Absolute confidence in your point shooting skills. You must have your point shooting skills down to a subconsciously competent level.

    (2) Elimination of negative visual input. The gun should not be in your line of sight. You should not be able to see the sight alignment. You should only be able to verify that the arm, hand, and the entire weapon is aligned on the targeted area. Having the negative visual input of the gun moving in front of your eyes will slow down your speed on the trigger and make you hesitate. You need to trust your point shooting skills and know that you are consistently indexed and work that trigger as fast as you can.

    (3) One handed shooting skills. You must be able to shoot very well one handed. Two handed shooting on the run is not nearly as effective or efficient as one handed shooting IMHO (when you are working the trigger as fast as you possibly can.). This is something that is easily proven.

    (4) The ability to use the support side hand and arm in a natural manner to stabilize the firing side hand. The support side arm swinging in a manner that counter balances and stabilizes the handgun is a very natural ability. Concentrate on stabilizing the handgun, understand that your support side arm is a key factor in that regard, and do as Enos says "Pay attention and your body will figure it out." This works very much the same way that a cougar or cheetah uses its tail to stabilize its dynamic movement. Same exact concept!

  16. #90
    Member Array kilogulf59's Avatar
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    Another great read Roger - thanks.

    "They are quite simple, but I am very surprised that they have never been written down before."

    IMO, many take the basics or fountation principles for granted or simply overlook them.
    Take Care and Stay Safe,
    Ken

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    REMEMBER What works for you may not, necessarily, work for me. Keep an open mind!

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