Aiming vs's Point Shooting

Aiming vs's Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Aiming vs's Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In my never ending quest to be as well educated and versatile as I can be, I've been doing alot of research ( internet searches) ...

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Thread: Aiming vs's Point Shooting

  1. #1
    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    Question Aiming vs's Point Shooting

    In my never ending quest to be as well educated and versatile as I can be, I've been doing alot of research ( internet searches) relating to Aiming and Point Shooting. It seems to me that in order to be effective if its ever needed, you need a multitude of skills in order to survive anything in life, especially a gun fight. Now I havent been to any formal civilian type defensive shooting courses (military courses yes I have) but after looking at many video's you cant argue the fact that within 7 to 10 yards there will not be any time to react fast enough to aquire a target with your sights and effectively defend yourself. PLEASE DONT blast me.... I'm not saying that it CANT be done, but the average Joe just wont have the mechanics to do it correctly. My experience in the military is Front sight press. Ive seen videos showing point shooting with the gun being indexed with the strong hand index finger, I've also seen the videos showing indexing with the week hand thumb & wrist lock method. All these tools are awesome and In the very near future I will probably be a student at one of these schools, besides hurting my wallet I don't think that any money spent on personnal protection training is wasted. And more than likely it will be at DR Middlebrooks place in Surry. But, jeezzz I've just gone on and on.... to get to the point(pun) Whats everyones preference? Aiming? Point Shooting? Both? I'm not tying to start any arguements about the techniques, I'm just looking to get point of views! Thanks
    Alex G.
    S&W M&P .45
    Virginia Beach, Va.
    Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
    Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
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  2. #2
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    Point shooting is my prefered method by far at pistol distances.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Close up I use point shooting but further out its back to the sights.This combination works great for me.

  4. #4
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    This is a subject we have discussed from time to time and often there is some contraversy regarding what folks actually regard as aimed and ''point''.

    It is simple for me - I use sights or I don't - being simplistic about it. At bad breath and most combat distances I think we HAVE to be suffiently skilled in what I call point shooting ........... quite simply, a means of accurate target aquisition based on muscle memory and (term used loosely) ''instinct'' - that being gained thru weapon familiarity and practice.

    Many might be the time that sighted shots would be a total luxury - otherwise incoming could ruin your day. Plus too ........ the need IMO to be able to get at least first (useful) shot off from close retention one handed - that could be critical.
    Chris - P95
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  5. #5
    Member Array jeffkirchner's Avatar
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    I always practice using point shooting.
    The early-bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

  6. #6
    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
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    OK, here’s my take on this topic. One technique will not work in all circumstances. You need to combine multiple techniques into an integrated fighting system.

    Think of it as a continuum. Moving from contact distance out, I use point shooting with a tactile reference, point shooting with a visual reference, sighted shooting with a flash sight picture, and sighted shooting with a full sight picture.

    A little explanation might help.

    Point shooting with a tactile reference: Think of a speed rock where you have your gun tucked in against your rib cage (that’s your tactile reference). This is used at very close distances where you don’t want to hand your gun to your adversary, and it’s not practical to use your sights.

    Point shooting with a visual reference: As you move away from your adversary, you can extend your arm(s) and assume a stance where your gun is pointed at him but still slightly below your line of sight. You can see your gun and have a visual reference to where it’s pointing. This is used when you are still close enough to make good, center of mass hits without actually using your sights.

    Sighted shooting with a flash sight picture: As you move further away from your adversary, you will get to a distance where you need a sight reference in order to make good, center of mass hits. This is where “front sight, press” comes in. Use your front sight like you use the bead on the front of your shotgun. Focus on just the front sight, without bringing the back sight quite up to where it would be for full sighted shooting, and “float” your target slightly above the front sight. This is quicker than using a full sight picture, but still accurate enough for intermediate distances.

    Sighted shooting with a full sight picture: When you get far enough away from your adversary, you will eventually need to use a full sight picture in order to make good, center of mass hits. This takes longer than a flash sight picture, but at longer ranges, you just can’t hit reliably without lining up both the front and back sights with your target.

    A good drill to practice this is to set up an IDPA/IPSC target and stand close enough to it that you are able to reach out and touch it. Draw to a speed rock and start backing away from the target as you shoot. As you move, go through the continuum as your distance increases, and use the techniques that allow you to just keep your hits in the vital zone as the distance increases.

    This works for me, but your mileage, as always, may vary.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

    "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber

  7. #7
    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    Awesome Harold.... thanks
    Alex G.
    S&W M&P .45
    Virginia Beach, Va.
    Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
    Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
    NRA Range Officer

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    To be a well rounded and complete shooter, sighted fire and point shooting needs to be integrated seamlessly into one "simply shooting" concept.

    One without the other is pure foolishness. You do not point shoot at 25 yards and you do not use sighted fire at 25 inches.

  9. #9
    Ron
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    Very informative thread. Thanks, guys. It is posts like this that make this such a great forum.

    Ron

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    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Very informative thread. Thanks, guys. It is posts like this that make this such a great forum.

    Ron
    Agreed! I've been wondering about this also.
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    We Did This...

    In a defensive shooting course I took in Leesburg, FL...and if you have not fired from close retention...it is enlightening, to say the least.
    To fire with one hand...the pistol above the holster and the other hand still on the chest...it not anything like shooting 'at the range'...
    With a little more distance, I would assume one might...I suggest...might...use just the front sight!

    ret
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    See what you need to see

    Necessary Visual Input Shooting


    Line of Sight

    Most of my students already have substantial sighted fire skills when they come to me. My job is to help them integrate their sight focus skills with their target focus skills. Since confidence is such a key factor to accurate target focus shooing, I like to start them out with what they already know and move them along incrementally from there.

    I start them with a one hole drill. The idea is to put five shots through one hole at five yards. This drill re-enforces the necessity for sighted fire skills for precision shots. Hard focus on the front sight, perfect sight alignment, perfect sight picture, excellent trigger control, and follow through is the goal. This also establishes their baseline marksmanship skill level.

    I next course of fire gives me an idea of the students skill level in regards to the draw stroke. I have them draw and give me 3-5 in the thoracic cavity (TC), at speed, using a "flash sight picture" from the five yard line. This begins to establishes their "safety level" and sets down their baseline for speed of draw, speed on the trigger, and accuracy at speed.

    Now I know my students skill/safety level. They are also pretty warmed up and they are feeling good about excelling at what they are already good at. I have their confidence in the palm of my hand and I can now take them into what is commonly unknown territory..... target focus shooting.

    The concept that I use to move then into this arena is to remove the amount of the visual input on the gun, incrementally. The first drill, I have the students focus at piece of red tape in the center of the TC (the focal point), and have them keep their focus on it. I have them draw at 50% speed to the line of sight. They are shown that you can still see a fuzzy sight picture in their peripheral vision, with hard focus on the targeted area. This is a very accurate form of target focused shooting and the distances can be pushed to very substantial distances. This is very common in competition, Enos calls it type two focus. Although common knowledge in the competitive circles, it is not at all common for most of my "tactically" trained students. We push the speed of the draw, the speed on the trigger, and the distance until the student finds his limitations with this skill.

    That is it for the sights for a while. I tape up their rear sight with a piece of black duct tape and move into alternative sighting methods. The next one that follows the "remove the visual input" concept is aligning down the slide. This is simply looking over the top of the gun and down the slide with hard focus on the focal point. Not quite as accurate as type two focus but the distances can be pushed out pretty far. Once again the limitations are explored until they are found.

    The next drill takes away more visual input. The student is told to superimpose the silhouette of the back of the slide onto the target area. This is commonly called "metal and meat" If you see metal surrounded by meat....take the shot. This technique really shines up close. Once the metal is bigger than the meat it is time to move onto another technique. Explore the limitations.

    This finally brings us to "Quick Fire." The concept behind QF is that there is a invisible box that extends from your line of sight all the way to the targeted area. The idea is to draw and punch the gun through this invisible box and to take the shot at extension. This is an excellent technique and works off of minimal visual input. Explore the limitations.

    It is not necessary to add all of these tools to your box. But the knowledge of them all, helps facilitate better accuracy in the ones that you decide to keep. Your brain will take in the information and use it without you even realizing it.

    That is it for the line of sight portion of the course. It is time to take away even more visual input by bringing the gun down and back. Preparing yourself to be able to get hits anywhere throughout the draw stroke.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Personaly i weigh in on the sighted side . Now understand i buy my pistols " ergonomic " and with mine i can hit a pop can from phone booth range out to 15 yards or so , many times further . and i feel this is needed fo a shooter to do with NO visual reference on the gun . Howeaver if and when range opens , or your time slows IMHO you need to think front sight . Be able to deliver shots at close range with no visual referance at all , but also go to a referance , or preferably sights as soon as you can . I am one of the folks that preaches sighted shooting , rather than unsighted . This is because unsighted is imho not presented with its limitations , You do need both , and the average ccw possibly should practice inside 7 yards , For myself i work to 50 yards with pistol and i weigh more twards long range than short . If you exist as i do in a rural area then point shooting is of less imporntance since ranges open up ... If you live in the city with the people pressure tho it becomes a primairy skill . In summation its not either or , its have both as best you can .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Personaly i weigh in on the sighted side
    Oh, say it's not so!

    Good post Redneck!


  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    LOL sweatin , You have been here enough to know i speak what i see , sometimes it just takes me some time to be able to express it LOL

    Edited to add : If you or brownie eaver offers a course local to me ( lets say 170 miles or so lol as local ) that i can scrape up the $$ for i will take it , and let yall know who i am so ya can get friendly paybacks for some of my posts too lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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