when to stop shooting?

when to stop shooting?

This is a discussion on when to stop shooting? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was at the lounge at work and the NYC groom/police shooting came up in CNN. The issue of 50+ shots fired were brought up ...

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Thread: when to stop shooting?

  1. #1
    Member Array Raider39a's Avatar
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    when to stop shooting?

    I was at the lounge at work and the NYC groom/police shooting came up in CNN. The issue of 50+ shots fired were brought up and was deemed unreasonable by a number of folks in the table. I did not comment on the legalities of the shooting because I was not there and I am not familiar with the exact details of the shooting. However, I did play devil's advocate and defended the position that the shots fired can be reasonable as long as the shooter deemed the target remains to be a threat.

    so, when you need more shots than the 2shots-center-of-mass/1shot in the head for failure to stop - when do you folks think it becomes "unreasonable" or "excessive" to keep shooting? these were the words used to describe the actions of the officers.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Unreasonable is when I'm still lethally striking a BG when there is no more cause to do so ... no more threat to be stopped. Unreasonable is to expect that any use of force up to that point is unjustified, if I believe A.O.J. applies and my life is threatened. My $0.02.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Glock 'em down's Avatar
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    I was trained to fire until the action stops. Whether it be 2 rounds or 30 rounds - SHOOT UNTIL THE ACTION STOPS!

    AND

    Always remember...once you fire a shot - you CAN NOT bring it back!

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I'd fire until the BG falls down (not still falling), when he's on the ground, I'd keep him covered (hopefully from behind cover) and give him some more if he tries to reach for his weapon or bring it back to bear.
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  5. #5
    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    Don't train yourself to fire a set number of shots. The number you've pre-chosen to solve your problem may be too few and it may be too many. Instead, shoot as many shots as you need to stop the attack. No less; no more. How many will it take? Every situation is different. It could take 0 rounds and it could take 41.

    Taking a good Force on Force scenarios class is a great way to put this to the test.
    Shay Van Vlymen - Instructor Tactical Response

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I think John Conner in American Handgunner magazine said it best:

    "Don't just shoot him until YOU think he's dead, shoot him until HE thinks he's dead."
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  7. #7
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    In a recent Combat Handguns there is an article by Masaad Ayoob which addresses this, he warns against shooting the BG in the head once he is down to make sure he is dead.
    Shoot until the threat is over, if that means one shot that misses but the BG runs away then that is plenty, but don't walk up to a dead or dying person and shoot them in the head at close range. The court will see this as an execution which is not justifiable.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    When the threat is over stop shooting. If you are using a Dillon Areo and his clothes catch fire you have shot him to many times.

  9. #9
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    Yep - do NOT get this ''2 com, one head'' deal fixed as ''the way to go''.

    It has to be IMO - all down to threat control - not to mention the fact that when adrenaline gets going chances are you will keep shooting without counting anyways!

    I hope to meet my maker never having tested this out.
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  10. #10
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    Also, remember the legalities of continuing to shoot after the threat is "neutralized."

    I read a case where a man shot a perp after he had already hit the ground and was charged with manslaughter. He was legal up until the BG hit the ground after that the threat was considered "neutralized" and further action was the difference between "justifiable shooting" and "manslaughter."

    I will shoot until the threat is down, then I will cover him, perceivably dead or not, until help arrives. I will not touch him, move him, or get near him (unless it's to kick a weapon away from his reach).

    This is an important issue, because I had quite the conversation with a young man who was under the impression that one MUST empty the magazine into the threat and BE SURE that the threat was DEAD even if it meant walking up to him while he's on the ground, suffering, and putting one in his head.
    I was appalled! That kind of thinking is what gives us a bad name and paints us as killers instead of defenders.

    I made sure to tell him that that was the most ridiculous and erroneous thing I had ever heard and I would pray for him if he ever tried it because he would probably be charged with murder.

    Shoot until the threat is down, reload if you have to, cover until help arrives. The end!

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Also, remember the legalities of continuing to shoot after the threat is "neutralized."

    I read a case where a man shot a perp after he had already hit the ground and was charged with manslaughter. He was legal up until the BG hit the ground after that the threat was considered "neutralized" and further action was the difference between "justifiable shooting" and "manslaughter."

    I will shoot until the threat is down, then I will cover him, perceivably dead or not, until help arrives. I will not touch him, move him, or get near him (unless it's to kick a weapon away from his reach).

    This is an important issue, because I had quite the conversation with a young man who was under the impression that one MUST empty the magazine into the threat and BE SURE that the threat was DEAD even if it meant walking up to him while he's on the ground, suffering, and putting one in his head.
    I was appalled! That kind of thinking is what gives us a bad name and paints us as killers instead of defenders.

    I made sure to tell him that that was the most ridiculous and erroneous thing I had ever heard and I would pray for him if he ever tried it because he would probably be charged with murder.

    Shoot until the threat is down, reload if you have to, cover until help arrives. The end!
    Again Miss Tunes....I say +1 to you.
    You have a real knack for summing things up very well.
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  12. #12
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    Shoot only if you fear for your life...stop firing after you hear the 'thud'...(BG hitting pavement)...



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  13. #13
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I remember a situation a few years ago where about eight police officers had confronted an armed man (NY, I think).

    The cops were trying to get the guy to drop his gun but he pointed his gun at the police and they openned fire.

    IIFC, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 -45 rounds were fired.

    The community was outraged. Bruce Springstein even did a song about it.

    So, on average, each cop fired about 5 or 6 rounds.

    The liberal view is that when the guy pointed his gun at the cops, they should have formed a committee to discuss the need to shoot, who would shoot and how many rounds that person would fire.

    Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of time when the SHTF and the officers have mere seconds available for making the shoot/no shoot decision.

    Once the decision was made, each cop had to act alone. They couldn't rely on the other cop to do the shooting. Each one acted according to his training. Shoot until the thread is neutralized.

    I bet when the dust settles on this recent event and the facts are actually reviewed, it will be discovered that the cops acted appropriately.

    We just need to wait and see.

    The sad part about having a jury decide whether you stopped at the appropriate point is that you have miliseconds to decide what to do. The jury can deliberate for hours, take breaks when they are tired and send out for coffee and sandwiches.

    What is obvious on the mean streets gets kinda fuzzy in the jury room.

    Also, reaction time has to be a factor. I read an article that indicated that it may take several seconds after the bad guy drops his gun before you realize that he has done so and your brain sends the signal to your finger to stop shooting. This could look bad to witnesses who don't understand this concept.

    The bottom line is to pray to God that you are never involved in a shooting but if you are, do the best you can.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    I remember a situation a few years ago where about eight police officers had confronted an armed man (NY, I think).

    The cops were trying to get the guy to drop his gun but he pointed his gun at the police and they openned fire.

    IIFC, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 -45 rounds were fired.

    The community was outraged. Bruce Springstein even did a song about it.



    the situation the boss was sang about was the amidou diallo case. he was coming home from work, and was confronted by police. he went into his pocket when the nypd opened fire. 41 shots were fired at a man who was holding a wallet.

  15. #15
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    Actually doing that (below) could leave you wide open for a Murder Charge.
    We do not (as in never) administer coup de grâce ~ Blow Of Mercy shots to downed Human Beings after the immediate deadly threat to your person has been neutralized/ended.
    You would have to be insane to do that.
    The forthcoming Forensic investigation WILL determine that you did that & then you will "instantly & like magic" be sitting in a deep bucket-load of doo-doo.
    Expect to do prison time.

    "In a recent Combat Handguns there is an article by Masaad Ayoob which addresses this, he warns against shooting the BG in the head once he is down to make sure he is dead."

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