Point Shooting and Reference Points

This is a discussion on Point Shooting and Reference Points within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is an offshoot on Roger's thread and I would like to try to make things a bit clearer. Let's try this range experiment. Place ...

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Thread: Point Shooting and Reference Points

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Point Shooting and Reference Points

    This is an offshoot on Roger's thread and I would like to try to make things a bit clearer.
    Let's try this range experiment.
    Place a man size target at about 7 yards and place a 5 inch black circle on the upper chest.
    Face the target squarely with the gun in two hands and in a low ready position.
    One cue raise the gun and rapidly fire 3- 5 shots while focusing on the front sight.
    Now we will try it with a QK reference point..meaning raise the pistol until the barrel is about 2 inches below the spot that you want to hit. Once there fire 3-5 shots as fast as you can pull the trigger.
    Now I want you to do the drill with total target focus.
    Look intently at the exact spot you want to hit ( Which, in this case, would be the center of the black circle) raise the pistol and rapidly fire off 3-5 shots.
    In my experience most of the shots--regardless of which method that you used--will be in a tight cluster. (If not you have to work on your grip and trigger control)
    OK..after shooting with total target focus look at where your gun is in relation to your body. ( Notice I did not tell you how high to raise the pistol. That will be dealt with by hand eye coordination)
    For some it will be at chest level. For others it will be at chin level and for some it will be at mouth/nose level.
    In other words, don't worry about the mechanics.
    If you focus on the exact spot that you want to hit then nature will take care of the rest.
    The Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes method of point shooting (FAS) did not use any part of the weapon or it's sights when using target focus, since it is human nature to focus on the threat when under deadly assault.
    The system did, however, include methods of shooting with the sights (usually from behind cover) when time and circumstance allowed it.
    Comments and civil discourse on this thread are most welcome.
    Last edited by Matthew Temkin; April 5th, 2007 at 11:00 PM.

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    Now we will try it with a QK reference point..meaning raise the pistol until the barrel is about 2 inches below the spot that you want to hit. Once there fire 3-5 shots as fast as you can pull the trigger.

    QK is a "total target focus" skill. Seems you are not quite as familiar with QK as I had thought Matt. The barrel is not the reference point, the end of the barrel or front sight [ which is at the end of the barrel ] is the reference point in your peripheral vision with the direct [ total focus ] on the threat. The peripheral reference point is about two inches below the point you are looking at and want to hit while the gun is positioned from 2-4 inches below the line of sight.

    It's a consciously applied peripheral skill using a very specific reference [ or as another is want to call it, visual index, which is the same thing ]. As such it is a more refined skill than other forms of threat focused skills such as FAS. The refinement being the utterly repeatable peripheral visual reference between the gun and where one wants to hit. So refined that in last years class in Knoxville, documented by one student in his after action review, and witnessed by 13 others, I was able to put 17 rds into a measured 1 inch group at 15 feet. It's as refined as using the sights without having to take the time to verify them. FAS, nor Quick Fire, nor any other threat focused skill I'm currently aware of can produce that grouping as QK can once trained and subsequently owned, without the use of sights.

    The Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes method of point shooting (FAS) did not use any part of the weapon or it's sights when using target focus

    In the other thread you stated the QK narrative I wrote was close to FAS in Shooting to Live [ STL ]. From your above statement now, it seems contradictory to your earlier position.

    As I provided the exact wording from STL, from the exact pages that were supposed to support your earlier position and confirmed by Roger, and it doesn't mention peripheral vision or peripheral references to the gun as the QK skills use and the narrative states, it appears they are not the same, not even close to the same as I wrote in the other thread to clarify for the members here.

    Seperate skills being used for both, not similiar or the same. The results might be very close, but they are taught differently and the results will be different.

    Proving what we have come to know over the years of discussion on this subject, which is that there are a few ways to skin the cat, but they are still different in their execution and descriptors.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 5th, 2007 at 11:53 PM.
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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I will have this thread as a tab , because as a " non dedicated sight focused " shooter i am allways ready to put a skill into the tool box , and it seems to me we have a dispute on technique Please carry on gentlemen I for one will take education from all the posts .

    Note to all , Sights are handy in a phone booth situation because they can cut . see bring a knife to a gunfight .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    All my street carry pieces have sights on them. I would not have it any other way.

    You just may need them, they should be there. If they are used when you didn't really need to use them to accomplish the task based on time/distances, they were only slowing you down while you visually verified some alignment, unless you are the highest levels of shooting as some are, and are accustomed to using them with speed through multitudes of rds downrange.

    I don't believe there is a dispute of techniques used with the various threat focused skills here. Several of the known systems will get the job done nicely, albeit with different degrees of efficiency and/or speed and accuracy based on ones training as well as how extensive that training/practice had been in the past.

    Edited to add: In the above post, I mentioned the 17 shot measured group others witnessed in real time. Several students were nearly able to duplicate that with groups measuring 1.25, 1.3, and 1.5 inches for a full mag out of their firearms and not one student held over a 3 inch group. Thats after just 3-4 hours on the threat focused QK skill at 15 feet.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 6th, 2007 at 12:01 AM.
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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Brownie , i for one am a " front sight " sorta guy , as i am shure you and all the target focused folks know. Howeaver after comeing to this board where things are discussed rationaly and politly . I came to realise its a matter of focus and degree , and we are not far apart . Allways ergonomics , ie how the gun handles and points has been one of my primairy considerations on selection . Now my main point on this is if the gun points well then the sights will be "on " when you present . requireing only minor adjustment . Other boards IMHO tend to side track point shooting as a replacement for sighted fire , for some such as yourself and Bill Jordan it can be , for the rest of us its something we need as we need sights .

    My feeling is buy a gun that indexes well , learn to shoot it to a loose bullseye level first , then work on combat skills , then work on unsighted as a graduate course ..

    Brownie and others will chime inn here and they know a heck of a lot more about unsighted fire than i do , but i suspect my thoughts will hold up in court .. Learn to shoot slow and right , then let someone who knows un train you and learn to shoot fast and close .. you need it allto survive , both the street and the court .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    i for one am a " front sight " sorta guy , as i am shure you and all the target focused folks know. Yes, I seem to recall that from your postings somewhere in here

    Other boards IMHO tend to side track point shooting as a replacement for sighted fire , for some such as yourself and Bill Jordan it can be

    I wouldn't characterize myself in that way, and your mention of Jordan in the same sentence as my name is surely not deserved, though I appreciate your thought.

    Though I've been using these skills since 1981, almost exclusively, I'd consider myself included in the "for the rest of us its something we need as we need sights ". as well here. I'd qualify on the police line using QK, both from the closer retention hip shooting at the 3 yd line and the other distances with pure QK skills, always qualled expert without the use of sights, but then, police quals really are not the most challenging in terms of use of these skills as the time constraints were so lax it felt like bullseye shooting at a liesurely pace.

    Where the skills were really tested was in the plate rack matches I shot for 5 years. Fast shots and 8" accuracy were the order of the day, all from 33 feet [ standard plate shoot distances ]. Six plates from surrender in 4 seconds was the norm with QK for me, and if I was having a good day, a few thousands under that time. It provided a testing ground for the skills where combat accuracy standards [ my own are 8" groups COM the same as the plates coincidentally ] were the order of the day to place in the matches.

    My feeling is buy a gun that indexes well , learn to shoot it to a loose bullseye level first , then work on combat skills , then work on unsighted as a graduate course ..

    I can't argue with that thought process sir. I believe one needs to have their handhold, trigger control under control and at a subconscious level first, and sighted fire bullseye will get you there pretty well as that discipline shows where you ar lacking in both pretty quick.

    I'd probably recommend that most get their basic shooting skills in order, then learn the threat focused skills, then on to a combatives type of training for the simple reason that the combative skills will fall into place a little faster and a little easier for most with the two disciplines behind them.

    Learn to shoot slow and right , then let someone who knows un train you and learn to shoot fast and close

    I'm not convinced you have to untrain in anything, but look at it more as an adjunct to the present skills, with the importance placed on when would be the most approproiate time to use either when your are threatened and need to use a firearm in SD of your person or another. It's a time/distance and how much accuracy is need to solve the problem at hand equation that with training, will flow naturally from one to the other as necessary based on the variables presented or even the changing of those variables during any encounter.

    You still need the basic of handhold and trigger control to be able to step up to the plate when the time comes, no matter what skills you are going to use. We are all capable of performing the skills I've been trained in and train others in quite easily. For most, the limiting factor in their success with these skills and how long it takes to pick them up is not based on the physical plane, but how open minded and open to explore their own possibilities they are------

    As my signature line on my own forums and here states:

    "The mind is the limiting factor"

    Brownie

    The mind is the limiting factor

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Ok an open request for brownie , sweatin , matt , or whoeaver start a new thread and make it pistol selection/fit , how what you select will effect how you shoot . give us a primer on how to pick a pistol , i throw it to you guys since i am lazy and besides it directly impacts threat focused as it is called nowdays .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    I think that everybody should try to shoot as many different handguns as possible.
    Everybody will find at least one or two that will tend to naturally shoot where they look.

    That's what always sort of bothers me when folks that are new to defensive shooting ask..."What handgun should I buy for self~defense?"
    There is no right answer to that question.
    This sounds weird but, Ideally the "personal defense firearm" should fit the Mind/Eye/Hand of the person shooting it.
    I know that sounds like I'm ready to suggest some sort of Transcendental Meditation studies...not quite.
    A shooter will eventually "know" what handgun suits them best if they shoot enough of a diverse # of them.
    Human Beings are amazing creations and we CAN force ourselves to adapt to nearly anything out of sheer necessity but, probably NOT reach any maximum potential plateau or speed/accuracy with an ill choice.
    There are some handguns that I have a natural affinity for and some that I shoot OK and just tolerate.
    At least... every new defensive shooter should hit the gun shops and get as many suitable firearms as possible "In Hand" - Start your selection process at LEAST with what feels right for you in your hand.
    When you go into a shoe store and you try on shoes - you always seem to know what feels good on your feet and what shoes suck - so why wouldn't you KNOW what firearm feels good to your hand and to your brain?
    If you DO buy a pair of shoes that don't fit your feet you'll KNOW IT real soon!
    It should be the same way with your personal carry handgun.
    If you buy one (or you get talked into a specific one) and you can't hit with it then either Dump It or alter it and make it fit you.

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    Not a problem sir. I recommend/fit pistols to people in several ways while working at the shop almost daily.

    In the meantime, I'd like to take this opportunity to make the following comment/s if I can here--------

    It's been a pleasure these last 4 years to meet and train with some of the best threat focused shooters and trainers this country has to offer at the present time. I haven't met all of the threat focused trainers, and so I don't have a handle on a few of their individual systems they have developed. Of ones I have trained alongside and trained with I'd like to recognize one who is hardly mentioned and should be.

    First, 7677 [ a member here ], one of the fastest shooters for pure speed on the trigger I've ever met. This guy doesn't miss often if at all and he makes his G19 sing, slingin brass in the air like it was full auto while using all kinds of threat focused skills he's either trained in and what some don't unfortunately recognize, even developed himself. He's developed skills and written so much over the years of tactics within the context of staying alive with these skills that it is incomprehendable he is not better known for his talents.

    7677 is a walking book of knowledge in threat focused skills, covering many systems and has developed or introduced some of the most innovative ideas and concepts at staying alive through his own experiences in the past. 7677 goes by this moniker as he needs to stay lowkeyed due to his present job title, and that at times may have hurt his being recognized for the talent he is capable of bringing to the plate. Should you ever have the chance to train with this guy, it's going to be well worth the time and effort to do so. Low keyed, and too the point, succinct to the extreme normally, it's become a great honor to know the man the more the years roll by here.

    I'm lucky enough to call him friend. He's a true force in the threat focused world and should be recognized for his many talents and support over the years when many didn't want to recognize these skills based on their being closed minded and not able to see the possibilities. One of the reason we are at the point in these types of discussion today, he's one that others should take seriously where this subject is concerned.

    Brownie
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    http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=23195

    The above thread is in response to Redneck Repairs open request.

    Brownie
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Fairbairn and Sykes did not use a reference point ( other than the sights) because it is unnecessary.
    In other words, either one is focused on the front sight or on the target.
    Any other so called reference point is totally counterindicated and will do nothing more than slow one down in an actual gunfight.
    Yes..you are correct that my QK is rusty because it is something that I never practice because I see no need for it. (IMHO if you are going to focus on anything besides the target then it should be the front sight.)
    But that is not the issue.
    The issue is what others think after trying all 3 methods.
    I am hoping to hear from them in the near future.

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    That is a good drill Matt, and really lays down the reality of the balance between speed and accuracy and the concepts you use to get there. I used "my" low ready, which would probably be a lot different than most peoples low ready. My low ready is compressed to the mid point of the draw stroke with the muzzle aligned at the adversaries feet. This drill really brings out the "continuum" of shooting that 7677 has spoken so much of in the past. The ability to do what ever needs to be done to just get the hits as quickly as possible.

    At flash sight picture I had a noticeable delay bringing my gun up to line of sight and to get the my focus onto the sights.

    With QK I also had a noticable delay (not as much as flash sight picture) to bring my gun up to the exact point to have the exact reference point before I fired.

    With pure hand/eye coordination I was much faster due to the fact that I had an economy of motion. I brought the muzzle up only to the point that I had the muzzle indexed on to the targeted area without any need for any sort of unnecessary predetermined fixed position. I simply use my elbows and wrists to align the gun onto the target. The entire movement of my gun was no more than a few inches at sternum level. Sighted fire and Quick Kill required around 18 inches of unnecessary movement.

    As I have stated before, I really do not like the low ready. I work out of a contact ready. The contact ready is a ready position and a shooting position that is predetermined by the necessary visual input that is needed to understand the entire confrontation. This fluid positon can be from any position of your draw stroke, from count three, all the way to mid point, all the way to various points below line of sight. The height and extension of your gun is dictated by the proximity of the adversary, the amount of visual input you need for the situation, and your ability to make the hits from these completely fluid positions.

    Here is my take on the contact ready in regards to "below line of sight."


    The very easiest way to understand the need for below line of sight would be from the "contact ready." The contact ready is a position taught to me by Gabe, where you have a very likely threat, but the ID has not been made well enough to shoot yet. This would mostly be a LEO ready, but will easily show the need for below line of sight for everyone.

    Give this a try.

    Unload your gun and double check that it is unloaded. Stand one yard from a mirror and point in at your reflection, at line of sight. This gives you two yards from your reflection. Notice that your hands and gun block the view of the adversary’s waist band and possibly the hands. Obviously, this is very bad!

    Now lower the gun while keeping it indexed on the targeted area until you can clearly see the waistband and hands of the adversary. For me this at my chin level, approximitely five inches below line of sight. By taking the gun out of your face you are able to take in the needed visual input for the encounter.

    Now back this up to two yards (that makes four yards to your reflection). You will notice that the gun does not have to be lowered as much to see the waistband and hands. For me it is at mouth level, aproximately three inches below line of sight.

    Now step back to three yards (six yards from your reflection.) My gun only needs to be below line of sight at my nose level, approximately one to two inches, to see the waistband or the hands.

    While this is an extremely simple example, it is still a very good example of why the ability to make hits fluidly from below line of sight is a very important one. The necessary visual input of this little test is a perfect example of the necessary visual input of an encounter, whether it be static or dynamic.

    The ability to make the hits from below line of sight are laid out in "the ten elements." Most important would be visual centerline, parallel to the ground, peripheral vision verification, and the confidence in knowing exactly what you are physically capable of. This will very quickly lead you to the hand/eye coordination that makes point shooting such an excellent tool. Hand/eye coordination is always the ultimate goal.

    Anyone can do this and when you can, you need to be able to do it from the holster, from the low ready, and with movement.

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    Yes..you are correct that my QK is rusty because it is something that I never practice because I see no need for it. (IMHO if you are going to focus on anything besides the target then it should be the front sight.)

    Again, we see you do not fully understand QK with this statement as it is fully threat focused skill as I mentioned before when you were mistaken.

    With QK I also had a noticable delay (not as much as flash sight picture) to bring my gun up to the exact point to have the exact reference point before I fired.

    From your own review after learning QK in Tucson Roger:

    "The technique excels when speed is the key factor. Speed of the shot, speed of your movement, and speed of your opponents movement. All the while giving you excellent accuracy and possible the very best accuracy possible when there is dynamic movement."

    IMHO, without a doubt, this is the very best way to get hits while you are exploring your limitations of dynamic movement. If for just this one reason, I would recommend, in the strongest way possible, that you learn QK.

    Damm good technique! I got to put it to use in FOF with mutual dynamic movement. Dude, it is a no brainer, it is like just reaching out and touching someone. It is actually so simple it's scary. With this skill, I will put my ability to makes hits "on the run" as my "greatest strength." That is a very reassuring fact!

    These are the things you've found to be true, and now want to train others, in your course from your own statements which led directly to this discussion. As you find there is a delay, you may now stop training others in shooting at nose, mouth and chin level with a visual peripheral reference [ what you call visual index ] which is QK.

    Seems odd to write about something you find a "delay" and hence detrimental and then be training students in that very same skill, but then it is becoming very apparent here what your motives are Roger.

    The entire movement of my gun was no more than a few inches at sternum level. Sighted fire and Quick Kill required around 18 inches of unnecessary movement.

    Again that would be comparing QK to compressed ready or another skill. Each is dependant on the amount of time and amount of accuracy needed to make the shot. But you know that, as you write about it continually elsewhere. Comparing again two seperate and unique skills with each other out of context, for whats becoming very obvious reasons.

    Speaking of time and distance requirements, you'll remember the timer results from your stay here last year when we worked to establish the differences, if any, between FAS 1/2 hip and QK hip Roger. In case you have forgotten, the differences in speed of the first hits was so miniscule as to be irrelevant between the two.

    What we did discover, and what Matt also knows from his time in Tenn when being attacked by multiples is that QK hip is superbly more efficient at getting the job done of rds on threat than FAS.

    Your attempt to compare pure QK with a 3/4 hip shooting position to give the appearance that the skills is lacking somehow is not going to fly here when others see that you are not comparing the correct skill with another or being used in the proper context, in an apparent attempt to discredit that which I train others in as only a part of the program of useable skills, possibly misleading the members of this site in doing so. Each has their strengths and weaknesses dependant on time, accuracy required and distance variables.

    Thats why each skill is covered [ including 1/4 hip. half hip, 3/4 hip FAS skills, along with a multitide of other techniques ] within the Integrated Threat Focused Training curriculuum in the proper context of what is needed to make the shot based on the variables one finds within a SD scenario.

    One only needs to remember this where your statements are concerned:

    Your thoughts and comments in your review after Tucson about QK, and that you now find that skill delaying the shot here, but that you are training others in by your own admission. Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

    Brownie



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    Last edited by AzQkr; April 6th, 2007 at 02:14 PM.
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    The All Important Learning Progression

    My latest articles have me progressing further than I have in the past and past just the "shooting continuum throughout the draw stroke" concept. As I teach, experiment, learn, discuss, observe, consider, and learn from what my students do..... I progress my teachings from what comes out of all of that.

    As I progress, I see an absolute need to break away from all things that are not completely well rounded and absolutely versatile.

    "Be Like Water," "Be Like Mike" it does not matter what you call it....that is my concept of the perfection of continuum shooting inside of the fight continuum. React as you need to react, see what you need to see, and move as you need to move. This concept breaks us away from all thing dogmatic...from all things that are "technique based." The mind is the weapon, the handgun is just an extension of the mind. We need to be able to get solid combat hits from any position (From the hip all the way to line of sight,) From all angles (at ever direction on the face of a clock) one handed of two, while seeing what you need to see (as set down in my "Visual Input" articles) with whatever movement that is necessary (stand and deliver, controlled movement, and dynamic movement.)

    Just like any well trained athlete this should all be worked to the point that it is programed at a subconscious level. As soon as you throw out the idea of "techniques" and accept this as a "concept," programming this all to the subconscious level is absolutely as simple as can be. It is just a fight! There is no time or room for "picking techniques" just do it.....and that is what I teach.

    Shooting at full extention with the gun at the completely appropriate, absoluely fluid, and totally situationally dependent height is just a very small part of this well rounded, completely versatille, Fluid Situational Response.

    I only have one priority position for my handgun and this is line of sight so that I can get to my sights. This is my default....this is what I want to be able to see. If that is not possible I have every other conceivable option covered. I do not have or teach any other "reference point" or priority position and I never will because it goes against every single thing that I teach and preach. My learnings/teachings have simply progressed way past that point with help from a lot of great people.

    The learning progression is a beautiful thing.....I am blessed to have the people around me that help me progress past the learnings of my past.

  16. #15
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    This concept breaks us away from all thing dogmatic...from all things that are "technique based."

    I rather think you are going to have to teach techniques [ as seperate parts which become the whole ] that flow into and out of each other as necessary, within the context of the concepts [ the whole ]. Pretty hard to teach concepts seperately.

    The concept is the theory and thought process, a mindset, like my signature line " The mind is the limiting factor". The concept has to be broken down to individual skills and those are the techniques.

    When you teach EU/ED, compressed ready, etc, they are individual techniques within a "system" of combative skills, not concepts.

    Concepts are cerbral, a thought process, ideas. Techniques live in the physical plane and are what will be used "physically" by the student when they need to "physically" defend themselves. One will be hard pressed to defend themselves with a concept without the techniques to back those metnal concepts.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 6th, 2007 at 06:12 PM.
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sykes point shooting
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