What's better? Trigger time or caliber potency?

This is a discussion on What's better? Trigger time or caliber potency? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pyrolyzer Spend $35 on a blue gun (which doesn't shoot anything) that matches whichever carry gun you have. You can get in ...

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Thread: What's better? Trigger time or caliber potency?

  1. #16
    Member Array SSKC's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Blue gun

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrolyzer
    Spend $35 on a blue gun (which doesn't shoot anything) that matches whichever carry gun you have. You can get in some extremely valuable practice time in your own living room and even better in you garage with your heavy punching bag for no further cost at all.
    Chuck
    I second the blue gun. It's so easy to pick it up and practice grip, aim, and general handling when you have a spare minute, without having to meticulously unload and double-check your real sidearm. It's also nice to have handy when reading a book or watching a video, so you can try stuff as you go without having to interrupt the reading/watching.

    SSKC

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  3. #17
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper
    You are assuming that the person has bad habits that he would be reenforcing. I would agree with you that it may not be the same firing on a fixed range with no movement vs a popup range with movement, but to say it does "no good at all" is simply not true.

    Sounds like IDPA works well for you, at least you like it. There are people, however, that don't want to (or don't have the time to) participate in IDPA matches and would rather spend their time on a range or in training. You are not necessarily any more prepared for a face to face shooting situation than they are. You may be, but then again you may not be....
    Shooting from a static position is good to re-enforce the basics, but that is all. If that is all you do you are not preparing yourself for a gunfight. Under stress you will revert to your training. You will take a static stance line up your sights and die in a hail of gunfire. Movement = survival.

    I recall a story of a police agency who's yearly qualification consisted of drawing and firing a single shot into a shilouette target several times. The cops would draw, fire their shot in the alotted time and reholster so the instructor could evaluate their performance. Wouldn't you know it, one of their cops was killed when he drew his pistol, fired a single shot at an attacker, and reholstered. Oops.

    Secondly, IDPA is a GAME. It is not a substitute for proper training and tactics. Using proper tactics will cause you to loose an IDPA match miserably and will often get you disqualified. Try this at your next match. On the close target, draw to guarded retention and fire, then drop to position sul and threat scan 360 degrees.

  4. #18
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    Red face

    Of the original query, trigger time vs caliber potency....I go along with all the comments on practice practice practice. When to occasion arises I want my first shot (hopefully only shot required) to "hit the mark" and that means practice. As for the cost of practicing with 9mm instead of .45, this brings in another variable....that is the gun itself. I have a few different caliber guns and every one is in a different "style" ....meaning the grip is different, the weight, the trigger....everything. Since most of "my" problems are associated with "tigger pull" consistency, this is really exaggerated when switching guns at the range. Ideally, I would have one "style" gun in different calibers...assuming the trigger pull is identical, I could fire the cheaper calibers to concentrate on "hitting the mark" and feel confident I could do same with the larger caliber. Don't get me wrong though, I still need to practice with the larger caliber.....just not a frequently perhaps....my two coppers.............I have a cheap source of .45's so isn't an issue with me.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation IDPA is better than IPSC or NOTHING

    Quote Originally Posted by clubsoda22
    Shooting from a static position is good to re-enforce the basics, but that is all. If that is all you do you are not preparing yourself for a gunfight. Under stress you will revert to your training. You will take a static stance line up your sights and die in a hail of gunfire. Movement = survival.

    I recall a story of a police agency who's yearly qualification consisted of drawing and firing a single shot into a shilouette target several times. The cops would draw, fire their shot in the alotted time and reholster so the instructor could evaluate their performance. Wouldn't you know it, one of their cops was killed when he drew his pistol, fired a single shot at an attacker, and reholstered. Oops.

    Secondly, IDPA is a GAME. It is not a substitute for proper training and tactics. Using proper tactics will cause you to loose an IDPA match miserably and will often get you disqualified. Try this at your next match. On the close target, draw to guarded retention and fire, then drop to position sul and threat scan 360 degrees.
    I agree 100% that under stress, you will revert to your training.

    I also recall an incident YEARS (decades? sheesh) where a pair of FL Highway Patrol troopers were killed in the hinterlands while in a firefight with a pair of badguys who were exchanging fire with the cops with both pairs behind their cars on the side of the road. The troopers were using .357 magnum wheelguns. The practice of troopers on the range according to strict range rules was to police the dropped brass. When the troopers were flanked and killed by one assailant, they were found with expended revolver brass lined up in neat little rows.

    Now IDPA may be a GAME but it is the closest thing to the real thing most folks will ever have a chance to experience and it calls for using proper tactics including the threat scan! Your 360degree example is simply unsafe and you know it. Most all IDPA courses of fire call for moving and shooting and taking cover. The close target is usually accompanied by another target and another and another which become visible as soon as the close is taken or as you move to another position of cover.

    Why don't YOU do the threat scan as the next two bad guys appear in front while you're looking behind? You see? Every situation is unique. If you just capped off a bad guy and had to threat scan 360 would you sweep your wife and kids with your finger on the trigger and all that adrenalin pumping thru your system?

    The reality is that if you've just blown a scumbag out of his socks very decisively are his BUDDIES going to hang around to be NEXT? Speaking as a former parole officer with close contact to thousands of felons, I say NO. They're cowards who seek quick cash with LITTLE or NO risk to themselves! No honor there, either. Revenge? Maybe later in the case of a gang, but not on the spot. At that point it's survival (run) and hang everybody else.

    IDPA is more likely to save a life than cost one. IPSC/USPSA is the real GAME which will cause deaths in the population for poor or no tactics. IDPA was formed in response to them!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #20
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    a 360 degree threat scan is completely safe, your rant would be unneccecary if you knew what position sul was.

    Place you weak hand palm down over your sterum and the gun hand over that. you gun will be pointed in a safe diercetion (about a foot and a half infront of your feet) throughout the entire threat scan. If another threat appears you simply punch out into a firing position. Threat scans are done after the action and while moving towards cover.

    If IDPA properly utilized cover you wouldn't loose points for hitting out of the A-zone when shooting around cover. If you can see the A zone, the target can see you.

    You can train correctly at an IDPA match, but you will loose every time without exception.
    http://www.warriormindset.com/Articles/article-IDPA.htm

    The closest thing to the real thing is FOF, but that's a discussion for another day.

  7. #21
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    Unhappy Sorry if you thought I was ranting on you

    clubsoda22: I need to clarify something: I NEVER play IDPA to win a match. That's why I continuously score near the bottom of the que! I'm more concerned about points down and procedural errors and "Failures to do Right." "A" Zone hits will put down a perp & procedurals like failure to properly use cover etc will put ME down. Folks who use IDPA in a similar manner are doing the right thing IMHO.

    Folks who play the game for the win, usually already play the game of life for real and in my club have the real life experience to do so and I cannot critisize them. I'm speaking of our combat vets, federal agents (for some reason my club attracts lots of DHS folks.... dunno why) and local cops.

    Sorry if you thought I was on a rant....I try not to do that, here. But YOU said that "Threat scans are done after the action and while moving towards cover" yet in your scenario you said to take the nearest guy and THEN do a 360 threat scan. If there's more bad guys that wouldn't be too cool and while I would and DO scan on the move, I don't look 360 while moving especially outdoors 'cause I wouldn't like to trip (I'm a klutz already) and be the club joke for the next century....

    Of course the closest bad guy might not be the tactically correct bad guy to hit first. A guy in front of me with a knife or a handgun might be less of a threat than a guy just behind him or to the flank with a shotgun. Agreed?

    Force On Force is using simunitions? Closest I ever came to that was use of MILES in the army. Laser tag.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #22
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    I competed in many disciplines over many years - that is history - long ago. I have recently resumed a bit - IDPA is one and PPC too will follow. These are ''games'' I'll admit but the one thing they do reinforce is weapons handling - familiarity - gaining of some instinct etc. I am using my carry piece (226) on purpose now - to ensure I improve competence and familiarity.

    ''Tactical'' shooting courses take things a good ways further but I'd say that even doing IDPA - is going to give a guy a better chance under duress, than the CCW who shoots a few rounds static, no stress ... once a month!!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Edit - darn - forgot to address main subject question! I think overall I'll go for measured trigger time over caliber. I can and have carried even 44 mag - but I am never gonna shoot that to the level I do 9mm. So for me - a high round count, all geared toward better stress shooting and shot placement - has to win the day.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #23
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    clubsoda22: I need to clarify something: I NEVER play IDPA to win a match. That's why I continuously score near the bottom of the que! I'm more concerned about points down and procedural errors and "Failures to do Right." "A" Zone hits will put down a perp & procedurals like failure to properly use cover etc will put ME down. Folks who use IDPA in a similar manner are doing the right thing IMHO.

    Folks who play the game for the win, usually already play the game of life for real and in my club have the real life experience to do so and I cannot critisize them. I'm speaking of our combat vets, federal agents (for some reason my club attracts lots of DHS folks.... dunno why) and local cops.

    Sorry if you thought I was on a rant....I try not to do that, here. But YOU said that "Threat scans are done after the action and while moving towards cover" yet in your scenario you said to take the nearest guy and THEN do a 360 threat scan. If there's more bad guys that wouldn't be too cool and while I would and DO scan on the move, I don't look 360 while moving especially outdoors 'cause I wouldn't like to trip (I'm a klutz already) and be the club joke for the next century....

    Of course the closest bad guy might not be the tactically correct bad guy to hit first. A guy in front of me with a knife or a handgun might be less of a threat than a guy just behind him or to the flank with a shotgun. Agreed?

    Force On Force is using simunitions? Closest I ever came to that was use of MILES in the army. Laser tag.
    Sorry for the confusion, threat scans follow engagement.

    It is neccecary to look 360. If you need to slow your movement then do so.

    Guys right on you get the first bullets. When i say close i mean the guy who is at contact distance. How you do IDPA is probably better than most. But real training is still a neccesity.

    Miles is FOF. In the civillian sector it's either done with simunitions or airsoft.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    ...Is it better to

    Practice fire a large quantity of a caliber that's not as well suited to self defense

    Or

    Practice fire a lesser quantity of a caliber better suited to self defense

    The reason I ask is that I believe shot placement trumps bore size, but even at that I wholeheartedly agree that a more powerful caliber will be a more effective tool than a less powerful caliber...Even if you can afford a better caliber you can always afford a larger quantity of a lesser caliber...OTOH why should you limit yourself this way when you know there are better tools to be had for the same money? Is the inherent power of these catridges worth not getting as much practice time in?...Who's better armed? The shooter who carries 9x19 and has put 10,000 rounds down range out of that gun, or the shooter who carries .45 ACP and has put 5,000 rounds downrange out of that gun?...I don't mean to debate the relative effectiveness of various calibers, I'm just curious what everyone thinks about practice time vs. a better tool.
    JMO, but bullet design has made caliber a secondary consideration, providing similar performance regardless of bore size. I would agree that shot placement trumps bore size. Crush injury is important, but if you fail to contact a vital area by more than 0.2", it doesn't really matter whether you were shooting 9x19 or .45 ACP. Who's better armed? The person who knows how to use effectively what s/he carries. The best tool in the world is useless in the hands of the incompetent. Quality of training is more important than quantity. I'd give the odds of survival to the person who shot fewer rounds and made each practice round count, over the person who shot twice as much but didn't pay attention to the fundamentals. If the quality of training is the same, then quantity wins out. In the end, I think both are important: you have to try to pick the best tool you can afford (and part of "best" means shooting it well) and then practice with it to achieve proficiency. Because the right tool will vary from person to person, practice and proficiency become more important than the choice of tool.
    - Tom
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  11. #25
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    Because the right tool will vary from person to person, practice and proficiency become more important than the choice of tool.
    Tom allow me to be wickedly pedantic ... I read this over and over and have the need to add just one word .........

    " Because the right tool will vary from person to person, practice and proficiency become more important than justthe choice of tool."

    I agree totally but here I guess am just wanting to make the point that tool choice is still a major part of the equation IMO. I mean by that - poor choice of tool could ultimately render unlimited practice still inadequate.

    So - tool is far from the whole deal but - for anyone, I do reckon, buy the best you can afford and with which you feel comfortable.

    Last NRA course I was coaching on - one guy came with his lightweight snub. he was determined to ''tame'' it and in fact did quite well considering but - for him, his hand size and shooting potential even with a whole heap of practice - it was not considered by any of us the right tool for him.

    He will practice and probably get much better but - I reckon if he had a better tool - more suited to him - then with practice he would finish up even better.

    Sorry if I am waxing pedantic ... it is only a small point after all.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  12. #26
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    In order of importance: Mindset, Training&Tactics, Tools.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    ...I agree totally but here I guess am just wanting to make the point that tool choice is still a major part of the equation IMO....
    Sure, it is; that's why I said both were important. But you are better off if you can work with whatever tool is at hand, aren't you? To me, this is where training kicks in. If my preferred weapon is not at hand, I'll use whatever is at hand and rely on my training and experience to get me through. The attitude, tactics and fundamentals that allow me to wield a P226ST in .357 SIG competently will serve me well, even if the only thing I have available is a beat-up cheapo .25 semi-auto pistol, a S&W M60 .38spl, or a Thompson Contender in some exotic cartridge.
    - Tom
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  14. #28
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    If you are a serious student of the combat pistol you have come to the conclusion that the 45 reigns supreme. Now if it is a matter of affordable trigger time then you are out of luck. There is no such animal. This is an expensive pursuit, period. Think of it thusly: When some 6'8" 260lb thug on crack with pipe in hand is bearing upon you, wife and offspring will you be comforted by the fact that you saved some money on 9mm ammo. Me, I'll skip a few trips to Chili's and the Mall and use the money on a soild 45, plenty of the ammo that goes with it as well as the best training available. I can ALWAYS earn more money (if I am alive).

  15. #29
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    .45 vs 9mm,.357 vs .40 we could go on and on on which is the best. I belive its the one you are the most comfortable and proficient with that counts. Now i want everyone to understand what i mean by proficient, its shotplacement,shotplacement,shotplacement,did i mention shotplacement.So you got one person who is skilled with a .45 and has to shot someone and he puts that person down with one shot,you got another who is skilled with a .9mm and has to shot someone and they put the bg down with 3or 4 rounds.Net result:bg is down.Now let me say something about comortable.How many of us have witnessed people at the range that were no more "comfortable, much less proficient" with whatever gun they choose,than a man in the moon.I can't speak for everyone on this forum but i have witnessed this quite a bit.I can tell by the posts that I've read that we have a very knowledge group here and i hope to have many caliber's, but i carry a glock 19 or a 26 everyday and belive i know where my shots will go if i ever have to use them because of:practice,training, and being comfortable with that caliber.

  16. #30
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Several year ago I read an article on figuring the effectiveness of rifle cartridges in Africa for people trying to discern what is 'enough gun' for planned hunts. The problem was that the criteria assumed the narrow examples of traditional bullets.

    For example, by rolling a bowling ball across the floor, you could rig the numbers to show this was enough gun.

    So it is with cartridges. Even if I hit you in the extreme reaches of your extremities with a .475, your hand or foot would have massive wounds. Your hand or foot might be totally blown off. The shock, the impact and the rapid loss of fluids probably would take you down on the spot.

    Having said that, I don't carry a .475.

    However, look at the statistics. If you lumped the deaths of .22s, .25s and .32s together you'd find that these calibres kill more people each year than everything else--combined.

    The reason is simple. It's the kind of gun most people carry and have handy. I believe that since most of the USA has CCW licenses, that will change over the years as people buy better stuff.

    To me, the question is then a bell-shaped curve. Large calibres and no training are an extreme at one end, and small calibres looked at as "the golden BB" are at the other end.

    The 'big fat middle' is closer to the truth. Moderate, traditional sized calibres aimed and fired with some semblance of professionalism.

    That's a sloppy crunch of numbers. Self defense is sloppy.

    I often tell people that bar fights always looked to me like a drunken rendition of 'the stadium wave.' First one bunch of drunks pushes the mob one way, and then the other bunch of drunks pushes it back.

    As I've said before, it takes a real stone cold pathological killer like John Wesley Hardin to calmly stand his ground and put one or two bullets perfectly into the kill zone.

    The rest of us practice Mozambique.

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