Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

This is a discussion on Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement Whatever you prefer to call it, point shooting, instinctive shooting, index shooting, reactive shooting, ...

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Thread: Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

    Hand/Eye Coordination, Confidence, and the Path to its Discovery and Refinement

    Whatever you prefer to call it, point shooting, instinctive shooting, index shooting, reactive shooting, continuum shooting, blah, blah, blah does not matter at all. The bottom line is that it is the use or ones natural hand/eye coordination to puts hits onto a targeted area. It is the ability to make the bullets go to the exact point that your eyes are focused on, from any angle or any position. Hand/eye coordination is simply a teaming up of the mind, the body, and the eyes. The mind simply directs the body to align the gun so that the point of aim intersects the line of sight at the focal point. This is easy to understand, but not all that easy to make happen on your own.

    We all know that the basics of point shooting has been broken down and taught into specific positions and stances (much like the four count draw stroke.). Now these “specifics” help facilitate in the teaching of basic point shooting and are a very important key to unlocking the door to your hand/eye coordination. But we need to understand that these are only the basics. It is my opinion, that if you were to stop here you have only glanced at 10% of this piece of the puzzle. To get the most out of point shooting you need to break away from this “basic breakdown.” Point shooting is not a stance, grip, position, or angle dependent skill set. It is a fluid, well rounded, and completely versatile concept.

    But, the basics are the basics and they are a necessary part of the learning progression. When we look at the basics we, usually look at the basic geometry of the body position. We teach to square up to the target with the nose and toes pointed at it. We teach to put the gun on our centerline and to hold the gun parallel to the ground. This basic geometry is virtually “fool proof.” It is nearly impossible to not get hits when the basic body geometry is put into place.

    It is my opinion, that there is another part of the basics that have been ignored by some of the old timers. I believe that this is done because most of the older books just deal with the absolute basics. Once you move outside of the basic body geometry and take the skills into fluid and dynamic FOF, you find that another very important basic piece of the puzzle comes into play. This would be the visual input of the hand/eye coordination equation. Enos and many other firearm instructors saw the importance of visual input to facilitate making the shot at varying distances, difficulty levels, and under time constraints. I firmly believe in the concept of integrating the old with the new to become the very best that you can be.

    With that said, I firmly believe in the teaching of alternative indexing methods (as Randy Harris calls it.) These methods fall squarely into the “see what you need to see” concepts. By using gun focused skills such as, hard focus on the front sight, flash sight picture, front sight only, and threat focused skills such as type two focus, aligning down the slide, and metal and meat you are teaching your brain to see what it needs to see and laying a solid foundation for your hand/eye coordination and the seamless integration between hand/eye coordination shooting and sighted fire. As I have said many times, just having the knowledge of these alternative indexing methods, your brain will know which part of this information it will need to make the hits. That is what hand/eye coordination is all about.

    Once we drop the gun to below line of sight, the visual input of the shot takes on a whole new meaning. We are now working with our peripheral vision outside of our cone of vision. Now once again, this is something that is completely ignored by some of the old timers, but let us face the facts. When it comes to hand/eye coordination, when your mind takes in the peripheral vision from the eyes, the mind will attempt to align the body/hand off of that information…… whether we want it to or not. That is simply the way that it works. To understand and accept this peripheral vision verification as fact is not a bad thing. It is a very good thing. This understanding and acceptance just leads to more confidence. When it comes to hand/eye coordination shooting…..confidence is the king!

    As we push the movement continuum with our point shooting skills, we eliminate more and more of the basic body geometry to the point that it is almost non-existent. We can no longer rely on our centerline due to the fact that it is just too limiting to our movement options. We now have to work off our visual centerline with our hand/eye coordination. Now, any direction that we look gives us our basic geometry. Add to this our line of sight alternative indexing methods and our use of peripheral vision verification below line of sight and we have an amazingly versatile hand/eye coordination aiming system. This system is as simple as can be, works off of the subconscious mind, and also has the advantage of absolutely excelling with dynamic movement.

    A few hours of conscious though and discovery will lead to a level of confidence in the subconscious minds ability, that will truly amaze most people. Once you have put in this small amount of work at the conscious level, you will never have to visit this level again. You will have a full understanding of your hand/eye coordination. You will never again have to ask yourself what you need to see to get the hits. You will just instinctively get the hits that you need within the correct context of the fight.

    And things will never be the same!
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

    http://fightfocusedconcepts.wordpress.com/

    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.


  2. #2
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    We are now working with our peripheral vision outside of our cone of vision. Now once again, this is something that is completely ignored by some of the old timers, but let us face the facts. When it comes to hand/eye coordination, when your mind takes in the peripheral vision from the eyes, the mind will attempt to align the body/hand off of that information…… whether we want it to or not

    Bobby Lamar [ "Lucky" ] McDaniel, an "old timer" had this figured out long ago, it perfectly describes his "Instinct Shooting" methodology from the 50's and what I've been using since training with him in 81.

    From my narrative of Handgun or Pistol Quick Kill [ QK ] Shooting Technique © "Looking at your target, you also should be able to see in your peripheral vision" and

    As above, when you could see the end of the finger pointing at the target in your peripheral vision while focusing on the target, you will now peripherally see the end of the barrel and/or front sight while looking at the target

    This system is as simple as can be, works off of the subconscious mind, and also has the advantage of absolutely excelling with dynamic movement.

    Remember this on your thoughts of QK's peripheral vision skills after Tucson in Oct. 05?

    Damm good technique! I got to put it to use in FOF with mutual dynamic movement. Dude, it is a no brainer, it is like just reaching out and touching someone. It is actually so simple it's scary. With this skill, I will put my ability to makes hits "on the run" as my "greatest strength."

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 16th, 2007 at 03:50 AM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    The ability to use eye/hand coordination skills with peripheral vision has also been expanded even further in conjunction with our natural proprioceptive and eye/hand coordination in the ITFTS classes.

    In 1991 I was exploring the peripheral skills used since 81 [ the eye/hand coordination accompanying the peripheral skills taught by McDaniel ] based on the understanding of how to use our proprioceptive abilities and eye/hand coordination that accompanies.

    Using ITFTS's "Enhanced Peripheral Vision" © students can now shoot using their peripheral vision skills easily to 60 degrees from center on either side [ laterally ] as well as vertically with either hand.

    I wrote that article, "Enhanced Peripheral Vision" © on my developing and enhancing the QK perpipheral skills in 1991 almost a year ago [ on 6/27/06 ] here:

    http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...ipheral+vision

    It was a natural progression, through exploring and testing ones limits, after using Lucky McDaniels' QK peripheral skills for 10 years and personally owning these enhanced peripheral skills now for the last 16 years.

    This system is as simple as can be, works off of the subconscious mind, and also has the advantage of absolutely excelling with dynamic movement.

    One small excerpt from that treatise last June was:

    I became so familiar with using peripheral vision that it became a part of my subconscious and as natural to use as anything that can be done without conscious effort

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 16th, 2007 at 04:11 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    That is very nice Robin. While you are entitled to your opinion it doesn't make you right. I'm going to be the better man here and save the members of CCF the train wreck you so desperately want to cause. I'm going to ignore your groundless accusations because you admitted you were wrong the last time and you are wrong this time as well. You are not worth the effort to argue with so after this post I will no longer respond to anymore of outlandish accusations or conspiracy theories.

    I agree to disagree.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

    http://fightfocusedconcepts.wordpress.com/

    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Thank god this thread is live tonight , i will post that you both are wrong , Muscle memory and ergonomics of a hand gun may well allow unaimed fire to find a target under limited circumstances and with limited range , but that is hardly something to bet your life on . ( sorry guys i gotta coon finger something tonight and your it lol ) If you want to live , then use the bumps on top of the pistol at any range that you cannot grasp the coat of the aggressor.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  6. #6
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    Nothing in my two posts is argmentative, or accusatory in nature. I didn't state opinions, I stated indisputable facts based on history.

    Peripheral Vision was being used in the early 50's by McDaniel within his own developed "Instinct Shooting" system which the USArmy later adopted and renamed Quick Kill.

    His pistol system, which you trained in verified the very advantages of peripheral vision use you are discussing here, something I've been using for 26 years. It's nothing new, well developed within the system McDaniel developed and those facts are indisputable by anyone.

    Also indisputable is that you were professionally trained to use these very skills [ peripheral vision through QK ] in Oct 05 to great effect. Hence your statements in your after action review of:

    Damm good technique! I got to put it to use in FOF with mutual dynamic movement. Dude, it is a no brainer, it is like just reaching out and touching someone. It is actually so simple it's scary. With this skill, I will put my ability to makes hits "on the run" as my "greatest strength."

    Where the "Path to its Discovery" is concerned--my own was garnered from Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel 26 years ago in personal instruction with the original master of peripheral vision use and developement. Credit where credit is due, I know I've heard that somewhere before right?

    You are also aware that I had developed the peripheral skills even further a long time ago, and written about that subject and how they can be used based on my own 26 years of using peripheral vision.

    It's not a matter of being right or wrong here, it's simply making the readers aware of who has the time and energy spent on peripheral development over a very long time. The journey on peripheral use started a long time ago, nothing to it.

    I think if peripheral vision skills are going to be discussed anywhere, someone who has used them for 26 years would be in a position to emminently discuss this subject with vastly more knowledge than one who has considerably less time in that area.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 17th, 2007 at 01:58 AM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    Redneck Repairs;

    Peripheral visoin skills are not "unaimed fire". You are still aiming the firearm, you are just not using those little bumps as the visual verification system.

    As one student stated after taking the ITFTS course in Knoxville, " Brownie may be able to chew a ragged 2 inch hole out of a target with 2 handed QK at 30 feet, but I would still use my sights "

    Sights are nothing more than sets of references that are either lined up with each other or used seperately dependant on the amount of visual information the shooter needs to solve the problem. The peripheral vision skill within QK also makes use of visual verification, but it's peripheral verification, instead of direct visual verification.

    The students have seen how effective the peripheral vision skills can be, and have repeated those skills quite easily after only hours within the course of instruction.

    edited to add: BTW- I agree with my student in his assessement of the use of sights at 30 feet, I'd be likely to use a front sight press verification at that distance, based solely on the amount of time I had to take a shot, the amount of precision that shot required in that particular instance and other variables.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 17th, 2007 at 02:15 AM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  8. #8
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    Can we PLEASE cut this out? If you guys would be so kind to put each other on ignore we can move on without incident. If we keep this arguement up, in thread, the outcome is not going to be good....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    My bad , Apologys to both sweatin and brownie . I am not myself of late and was fishing for a debate or arguement ... this is the wrong forum and its my bad . For the record folks , Pay attention to these two , both of them can educate you .

    Edited to add Apologys to sweatin , brownie and the forum as a whole , mods and members .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Redneck Repairs;

    No apologies necesaary here sir.

    I didn't take your post as argumentative in the least, but just jest [ afterall you did use the "LOL" ]. Hope you didn't take my reply that way as well. I like the give and take of debate on issues based on differences of opinions.

    It educates the public and further stimulates thought processes where staying alive with firearms are concerned.

    Bumper,

    My intent was not to argue but educate the members where below line of sight peripheral vision skills come from, that being one of the pre-emminent masters on the subject from the 1950's.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; April 17th, 2007 at 02:56 AM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Brownie , i love to discuss the issues with you in a polite manner since like you i feel all who read us learn something , howeraver i am not myself now , and its a good thing for me to be called on my post . Discussion is fine , i made an arguemenitave post that was both wrong and disrespectfull , because ... well i guess because i am me . I made another post on where i am mentaly , and need to abide there . Frankly right now i could fight the issue , but not give you an honest battle , and you sir deserve my best so to speak lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Redneck Repairs;

    Hoping you get back to your normal "self" soon, looking forward to your best .

    My best wishes to you in that regard sir.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    Thanks brownie , personaly i hope not too soon , but then i have 3 cats , 2 dogs , 2 kids , 2 grandkids , and one wife who will help me , if i just can keep from sturrin the pot online lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    I Don't Really See Any Argument Here

    I don't really see any real argument at all.
    I see two individualistic talented shooters and teachers with some (what would be considered to be NORMAL variances) in shooting methodology based on the fact that you are two different people.

    You are two different individuals and you were not born exact clones of each other like "Dolly The Sheep" and so naturally and quite expectedly nothing that you do (or teach) will be exactly the same. Is that such a terrible thing?

    Different is NOT synonymous with Better or Worse or with Superior & Inferior.

    Please use any two great impressionist painters as an example. Neither will use exactly the same palette of colors and neither will accomplish their work with exactly the same painting technique. Neither one will put the brush to the canvas in exactly the same way.
    That does NOT mean that one painting is inferior to the other.
    Both can be phenomenal works of art - each having their own merit and worth. Yet the work of both is impressionistic and can be appreciated as great art in its own right.

    How incredibly damn boring life and learning would be if we were all exactly the same!
    Celebrate what is different about each of you rather than despising it.

    A serious Student Of The Arts would not want to attend two different Art Schools to learn exactly the same things at both schools.

    If an art student were to attend only one of the two great art schools that would not make him a bad painter. He may attend one (or both) and still go on HOPEFULLY to paint in his very own unique style.

    I am a recent member of another forum chock full of thousands of artists and they somehow manage to all get along. It's really a pretty amazing thing to see.

    It would be incredible to see how much further you both could push this unique genre of shooting if you would work more harmoniously and in tandem instead of getting overly sensitive and argumentative over the very things that make it advantageous to have two voices, styles, and respectful opinions available instead of just one.

    It is not good to have two top surgeons arguing as to if to work on the left ventricle before the right one and meanwhile all the patients who really need necessary heart surgery are dying.

    Catch my drift?
    Last edited by QKShooter; April 17th, 2007 at 05:27 AM.
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    How has it been determined these are great trainers? I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just asking how it was determined. We have other trainers on the forum, Tactical Response, Defensive Training Concepts, Inc., Perroni's Tactical Training Academy, Personal Defense Training, and probably others I have missed in my quick look and they don't seem to get the same ranking. How does that work? Do they just not talk and argue enough?
    I'm too young to be this old!
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