All you front sight press shooter, check this out from Col. Cooper

All you front sight press shooter, check this out from Col. Cooper

This is a discussion on All you front sight press shooter, check this out from Col. Cooper within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I posted this elsewhere in a response, it deserves it's own thread. From the 1961 "The complete book of modern handgunning", written by Jeff Cooper: ...

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  1. #1
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    All you front sight press shooter, check this out from Col. Cooper

    I posted this elsewhere in a response, it deserves it's own thread.

    From the 1961 "The complete book of modern handgunning", written by Jeff Cooper:

    page 126
    "Therefore, the practical pistol shot must be a good quick draw performer. It is sometimes hard to convince people who have been trained along the lines of this, as to identify the term "quick draw" and "fast draw" with all sorts of show business foolishness, but as a matter of fact a quick draw is not necessarily a TV stunt. It can be an essential way for a police officer, a soldier, or even a private citizen to stay alive. "

    Same page is a picture of Don Nowka drawing a duty revo to Fairbairn/Sykes 3/4 hip from concealed from under a suit jacket.

    Same page,
    "In order of importance the three qualities of a practical pistol shot are (1) accuracy (2) power and (3) speed-but lack of any one can be fatal"

    Page 129
    "To conclude this chapter [ How to shoot ], I feel obligated to quote a remark from a non shooting friend made a week or so ago. I had been discussing a few fine points with a shooting companion after a practice session,when this man spoke up. "Hell, he said, don't make a production of it. All you've got to do is point it and pull the trigger!". Come to think of it, that's all you do have to do.

    Page 101
    He advances the idea that 3/4 hip [ he describes it as "bent arm, pistol at diaphram level" ] is good for kill zone of a man at 10 yrds. He makes the case for 2 broad classes of pistol shooting, sighted and unsighted fire. Under sighted fire there are two categories, under unsighted fire, same for 4 division under the two classes [ sighted/unsighted.

    That Cooper advanced the idea that 3/4 hip can be effective at 10 yrds with kill zone of man accuracy was a little disconcerting, what with all the modern technique shooters posts admonishing anyone who would come close to advancing the same idea.

    The more I read the old masters, the more light is shed on the subject and truths emerge. Here's the father of two handed modern technique advancing the use of unsighted fire at out to 10 yrds one handed and below line of sight. Something I've not done myself [ advance 3/4 hip shooting out to 30 feet ]. I'll be referencing several of the masters quotes from time to time in the future in responses to others posted thoughts/opinions. Will the Cooperites here dispute their mentors own opinions on various talking points they themselves have posted to the contrary opinion of Cooper??
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    New Member Array cjones1802827's Avatar
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    I've been intrigued with "point shooting" for sometime. I don't know if DR Middlebrooks is a member here or not but his DVD is worth the price. He has several YouTube videos as well.

    I've practiced drawing out with Mozambique drill unsighted with good results. Point shooting is not real popular, but in my opinion it certainly has merit for immediate responses.


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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    You are really grasping at straws aren't you? It's a well known fact that Cooper acknowledged that point shooting and a fast draw has its merits.....within a narrow scope of application.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
    -Jeff Cooper

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    At thirty feet, I can draw and use sights and that is what I will do...and probably even a bit closer. I can hip shoot, front sight press, etc, but I will always choose sighted fire if possible. I was never in a situation where shooting from the hip would have been required. When I was shot at, it was from guys in buildings or houses, running through a marina, from a boat, and from out of a bathroom in a hotel(that one was close). In most of those instances, cover was available and I found it to return fire. I did fire one-handed while moving to cover. The closest of those incidents was probably 15 feet, the longest @ 30-40 yards. In all but the marina, I was with team members and sometimes had local police back up. Street cops face more explosive situations, closer distances, and are many times hung out there alone. I think hip shooting or point shooting may come into play a lot more. Heck, I had my pistol already drawn in most of my encounters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjones1802827 View Post
    I've been intrigued with "point shooting" for sometime. I don't know if DR Middlebrooks is a member here or not but his DVD is worth the price. He has several YouTube videos as well.

    I've practiced drawing out with Mozambique drill unsighted with good results. Point shooting is not real popular, but in my opinion it certainly has merit for immediate responses.


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    He is indeed a member here:
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That Cooper advanced the idea that 3/4 hip can be effective at 10 yrds with kill zone of man accuracy was a little disconcerting, what with all the modern technique shooters posts admonishing anyone who would come close to advancing the same idea.
    They never really read Cooper then, or didn't comprehend what they were reading.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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    Senior Member Array wdbailey's Avatar
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    The issue seems to be that while people who will use sighted fire all agree that there's a place for point shooting some pint shooters seem to feel that there's no place for aimed fire
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    We've had caliber wars and platform wars, guess it's time for aiming war!

    I'm not really sure where the controversy comes from. I thought it was well established that point shooting and use of sights both have their uses. Maybe it's over the situations in which point shooting is called for?
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    Ford or Chevy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    You are really grasping at straws aren't you? It's a well known fact that Cooper acknowledged that point shooting and a fast draw has its merits.....within a narrow scope of application.
    There was a period of time when he did not. Orange Gunsite instructors were told not to discuss point shooting and penalized if they did mention it. So officially Cooper didn't deal with it for a while. Another one of the interesting points of the history of Modern Technique.
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    From the time I started shooting guns as a child I was taught the principals of marksmanship. After serving in the Army as an MP I entered the world of civilian LE. I was taught threat focused shooting. The was we were taught was from any distance past where you need to keep the gun tucked in so as to protect it from a disarm attempt you should use both hands extended together, focusing on the threat but still indexing the gun. Using this method you can quickly learn to hit a fist sized group Constantly out to 15 yards as fast as you can fire.

    You like to use 3 or 4 guys to prove that your method is the best. There is nothing wrong with having this skill set, but to say that it is the best is quite a stretch It has an application. I see it more as one more tool in the tool box. A well rounded shooter with excel at multiple disciplines. Specialization is for insects.

    It really only works when you are standing still. Not just sport shooters use more modern techniques. I am glad surgeons use more modern techniques than what they did 100 years ago.

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    The issue seems to be that while people who will use sighted fire all agree that there's a place for point shooting some pint shooters seem to feel that there's no place for aimed fire
    Actually for quite some time it was the other way around.
    Can you inform me which "pint" shooters claim that there is no place for aimed/sighted techniques?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    You are really grasping at straws aren't you? It's a well known fact that Cooper acknowledged that point shooting and a fast draw has its merits.....within a narrow scope of application.
    Grasping at straws? That's what you believe I'm doing? That's quite an indictment. Cooper proposed 3/4 hip to 10 yrds in 1961. Hell, I've never proposed that skill be used at that distance, one of the interesting things I didn't know about Cooper mindset. It couldn't have been that well known, I've followed many of the masters writings for decades and didn't see anything like the original post comments in all those years attached with Cooper name to it.

    That the father of modern technique which requires a two hand hold and use of sights, advancing an idea for 3/4 past it's normally effective range. Oh, and before I forget, you're the one who poo poo's draw speed practice like I work on, as near useless to spend time on. Yet, a sorta mentor of yours due to your almost exclusive use of modern technique is in direct conflict with your opinion on practicing draw speed. Cooper is pretty well respected as a trainer and being knowledgeable in handling himself with a handgun. His opinion is in direct conflict with your stated position on time spent to be fast on the draw.

    Narrow scope? Recommending 3/4 hip used at 30 feet isn't a very narrow scope of application. In fact, it's far more expanded in scope than even I am willing to work with at 3/4 hip which Cooper did not. My honest impression of his remarks in 61? He was in over his head about point shooting, and made a mistake in suggesting 3/4 hip be used to 30 feet.

    Just making observations here based on your previous posts. Does one listen to Coopers advice here or yours?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    The issue seems to be that while people who will use sighted fire all agree that there's a place for point shooting some pint shooters seem to feel that there's no place for aimed fire
    Just the opposite for the last 12 years of internet chat. The threat focused trainers have been incessantly badgered by front sight pressers on the net that is all one needs beside a retention position, while every threat focused trainer that's ever posted on the net [ and I'm aware of at least 5 ] have always stated learn both, not one or the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    The issue seems to be that while people who will use sighted fire all agree that there's a place for point shooting some pint shooters seem to feel that there's no place for aimed fire

    Name one threat-focused trainer who has ever said anything close to that, and I'll give you a like.
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