John Farnam and NRA Training

This is a discussion on John Farnam and NRA Training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24Apr07.html http://www.defense-training.com/ The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions. 1. PPOTH, PPITH, and Basic Pistol Manuals need ...

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Thread: John Farnam and NRA Training

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    John Farnam and NRA Training

    http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24Apr07.html

    http://www.defense-training.com/

    The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions.

    1. PPOTH, PPITH, and Basic Pistol Manuals need to be updated along with Instructor and Training Counselors materials, with muscle memory in mind, simple steps (not more than 3 steps for procedure - otherwise will not remember under real stress) whether it be the draw or malfunction clearance drills. While there is a lot of good information in the manuals - some photo's and procedures need to be re-done.

    2. This NRA requirement for specific lawyer, any lawyer, or Peace Officer needs to deleted. This requirement is holding up the offering of these courses Nation wide. This is not Federal or State requirement but a NRA requirement. If for no other reason, VA Tech proved that - carry 24/7 is a must - carry anything - anytime - anyplace with "NO" restrictions. Somewhat like the Texas Governor just stated on another post here on Combat Carry. The NRA needs to wake up - membership needs to wake up this sleeping giant.

    3. Rule #3, ' Keep all guns unloaded until ready to use,'
    maybe some do not understand what this means or at
    least to me ... it means hunting firearms unloaded and
    tucked away safely ... it means target shooting
    firearms unloaded and tucked away safely .... it means
    Personal Protection firearms in a ready to use
    condition in less than 1/2 second ... (1/4 second to
    think about it and 1/4 second to do it) ... so
    Personal Protection Rifle and Shotguns rounds in the
    magazines with NO round in the chamber AND pistols
    with a round in the chamber ... "all" either on my body or
    with an arm's length of reach at the most ... along
    with flashlights and knives.

    4. If going to run with the Big Dogs then cannot whine like a puppy, just do it ! maybe the NRA is too close to WASH DC and maybe the NRA HQ personnel who write the manuals need current training and experience.
    -- Need an updated Manual for PPOTH
    -- Need to delete the lawyer and Peace Officer requirement
    -- Need to read and study, the published materials of Sykes, Fairbarn, and Applegate from the 1930's and 1940's ... we have come full circle in the Firearms Training arena
    Last edited by DOGOFWAR01; May 1st, 2007 at 05:06 AM. Reason: add the word "NO" add "re-"

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  3. #2
    Member Array clemmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post

    simple steps (not more than 3 steps for procedure - otherwise will not remember under real stress)
    This point is very important. When airlines train pilots for emergencies, they look for the smallest number of "immediate action" items that the pilot must perform to take care of the emergency. The pilot performs the "immediate action" steps, then when the situation allows, the emergency checklist is called for and read by the pilot not flying and its steps are accomplished by both pilots.

    The "KISS" (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle should still be applied to training.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Since you won't even send me a PM or email.

    Your answers can be found here.

    1) If you like something better get certified with them. Teach their courses. Don't teach NRA's is that simple.

    2) Put it in writing and send it in.
    NRA
    Attention General Counsel
    11250 Waples Mill Road
    Fairfax, VA 22030

    3) Rule number 3. I guess you didn't read it. "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use"

    Right now I have a Loaded 9mm in my pocket. My neighbor has a Glock 26 probably, or some kind of Glock, Are we violating Rule number 3?

    The answer is "NO"

    The word USE is the last word in rule #3 and has been the rules for a very long time. USE Dosn't mean SHOOT. What are you USING the gun for? Answer whatever it is your USING it for. Well the gun in my pocket I'm currently USING, is it as a Personal Protection tool I'm not currently shooting the gun in my pocket but I am in fact using it. The guns in my safe I am not USING, when I go hunting I dont' load my gun when a deer walks out in front of me its loaded I'm USING the gun in the act of hunting.

    4) I've told you before you can email me, I don't bring this up every other month. Therefore the whining statement I find a little odd and maybe out of place.

    I would recommend that you read the material provided to you. It seems that you have not read it all or somebody failed to mention a few key points.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  5. #4
    Member Array plblark's Avatar
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    Rob99VMI04,

    not everything is an aimed insult hurled directly at you. The NRA NEEDS to seriously address their PPITH and PPOTH courses and the lawyer requirement. The NRA should ride the wave and get out there with classes people can USE.

    sometimes being the 800 Lb. gorilla scares your opponents. Other times it makes it really difficult to get off your ass and do something!
    For MN specific carry information and a great shooting community, check out forum.twincitiescarry.com

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plblark View Post
    Rob99VMI04,

    not everything is an aimed insult hurled directly at you. The NRA NEEDS to seriously address their PPITH and PPOTH courses and the lawyer requirement. The NRA should ride the wave and get out there with classes people can USE.

    sometimes being the 800 Lb. gorilla scares your opponents. Other times it makes it really difficult to get off your ass and do something!

    Thanks glad to know someone still loves me.

    To get things changed or at least heard you have to mail it in.

    I know why the individual put this up here. He also claims to know everything about me and my job, yet he lives over 3000 miles away and won't even send me a PM. He also says I'm the one doing the whining.

    "4. If going to run with the Big Dogs then cannot whine like a puppy, just do it ! maybe the NRA is too close to WASH DC and maybe the NRA HQ personnel who write the manuals need current training and experience.
    -- Need an updated Manual for PPOTH
    -- Need to delete the lawyer and Peace Officer requirement
    -- Need to read and study, the published materials of Sykes, Fairbarn, and Applegate from the 1930's and 1940's ... we have come full circle in the Firearms Training arena
    "


    "3. Rule #3, ' Keep all guns unloaded until ready to use,'
    maybe some do not understand what this means or at
    least to me ... it means hunting firearms unloaded and
    tucked away safely ... it means target shooting
    firearms unloaded and tucked away safely .... it means
    Personal Protection firearms in a ready to use
    condition in less than 1/2 second ... (1/4 second to
    think about it and 1/4 second to do it) ... so
    Personal Protection Rifle and Shotguns rounds in the
    magazines with NO round in the chamber AND pistols
    with a round in the chamber ... "all" either on my body or
    with an arm's length of reach at the most ... along
    with flashlights and knives. "

    I don't even know why the individual put this up here but it seems the individual dosn't understand the Safety rules.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  7. #6
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Rob99VMI04 ... Re-read my post

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Since you won't even send me a PM or email.

    Your answers can be found here.

    1) If you like something better get certified with them. Teach their courses. Don't teach NRA's is that simple.

    2) Put it in writing and send it in.
    NRA
    Attention General Counsel
    11250 Waples Mill Road
    Fairfax, VA 22030

    3) Rule number 3. I guess you didn't read it. "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use"

    Right now I have a Loaded 9mm in my pocket. My neighbor has a Glock 26 probably, or some kind of Glock, Are we violating Rule number 3?

    The answer is "NO"

    The word USE is the last word in rule #3 and has been the rules for a very long time. USE Dosn't mean SHOOT. What are you USING the gun for? Answer whatever it is your USING it for. Well the gun in my pocket I'm currently USING, is it as a Personal Protection tool I'm not currently shooting the gun in my pocket but I am in fact using it. The guns in my safe I am not USING, when I go hunting I dont' load my gun when a deer walks out in front of me its loaded I'm USING the gun in the act of hunting.

    4) I've told you before you can email me, I don't bring this up every other month. Therefore the whining statement I find a little odd and maybe out of place.

    I would recommend that you read the material provided to you. It seems that you have not read it all or somebody failed to mention a few key points.

    Rob99

    FACT # 1
    I am "not" the person who sent John Farnam an e-mail therefore I am not the Training Counselor whom John Farnam refers too.

    FACT # 2
    I received John Farnam's link posted from a friend on an e-mail to me, many miles and across many State borders, from where I am living.

    FACT # 3
    I do think it brings to light one error of procedure in the PPOTH manual, there are several other errors and incorrect photo's based on current, 1930's, and 1940's procedures (we have come full circle on training today, we are back to what works, we are back to the 1930's and 1940's - Sykes, Fairbarn, and Applegate). The manual is using some procedures developed in the 1980's and 1990's, mainly for competition and sqaure range. Muscle memory is very key in a defensive encounter unless totally aware of surroundings, one is the reaction mode rather than the action mode and action is always quicker than reaction. This I also concur with.

    FACT # 4
    John Farnam link does give good credit to the NRA in that without the NRA, we probably would not have what guns we have today. Which I also concur with.

    FACT # 5
    From your item 3, I guess you did not read closely (giving you the benefit of doubt). The quote I posted are not my words but from the link - re-read the link. If you re-read my words, I am agreeing with you words and disagreeing with John Farnam's link in regard to Rule # 3, yes it is about intended "use".

    FACT # 6
    I have been provided no materials by the NRA, I have purchased some books from the NRA as I do from many other sources on many topics.

    FACT # 7
    Reading, maybe you are reading and maybe you are not reading, maybe analysis of the words and understanding whom wrote what is your issue. Suggest you re-read the John Farnam link always keeping in mind I am not the one who e-mailed or posted with John Farnam. Per John Farnam's post it was a NRA Training Counselor who posted - as I said before I am not that person.

    FACT # 8
    Why would I even take the time to e-mail or phone someone, who jumps to conclusions, does not take the time to read and analysis to understand what a NRA Training Counselor wrote on John Farnam's web site, what John Farnam wrote on John Farnam's his web site, and what I wrote on Combat Carry - three different individuals, all entitled to their opinion, as paid by the blood of many and all whom have served in the U.S Armed Forces including the U.S. Coast Guard -many of which have served and continue even today to serve with U.S. Armed Forces overseas in designated combat zones. I do not remember the exact quote from WWII and Korea era but something like this - Thank a teacher that you can read, Thank a soldier that you can still read in English.

    FACT # 9 - In Summary:
    a. The NRA Training Counselor points out some errors in the manuals existing in both the PPITH and PPOTH manuals.
    b. John Farnam agrees with the NRA Training Counselor, makes some comments of his own in regard to cold ranges versus hot ranges and gives the NRA the due credit that we might not have firearms today without the NRA past involvement.
    c. My comments, agree with the errors and photo's in the Basic Pistol, PPITH, and PPOTH manuals; agree some of John Farnam's comments and disagrees with his comment of what is meant by "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use" (in other words agrees with your comments); and as you fully know and concur with that is a NRA requirement not a law requirement for the lawyer and Peace Officer, this is a road block to firearms and Personal Protection Training for the Citizens of this Nation, which we (meaning the Country) have never needed.
    d. As I have stated on several posting(s): The NRA Training Class are basic, advanced training foundation is basic training, do not instill incorrect muscle memory at the basic level.
    e. I would not waste my time, e-mailing or talking on a phone with anyone, who does not read or does not analysis what they have read or whatever. For your sake, slow down on jumping conclusions esp when armed, you just might read situation incorrectly and take the incorrect action as you did on your posting.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    This what you said in your first post...

    The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions.

    1. PPOTH, PPITH, and Basic Pistol Manuals need to be updated along with Instructor and Training Counselors materials, with muscle memory in mind, simple steps (not more than 3 steps for procedure - otherwise will not remember under real stress) whether it be the draw or malfunction clearance drills. While there is a lot of good information in the manuals - some photo's and procedures need to be re-done.

    2. This NRA requirement for specific lawyer, any lawyer, or Peace Officer needs to deleted. This requirement is holding up the offering of these courses Nation wide. This is not Federal or State requirement but a NRA requirement. If for no other reason, VA Tech proved that - carry 24/7 is a must - carry anything - anytime - anyplace with "NO" restrictions. Somewhat like the Texas Governor just stated on another post here on Combat Carry. The NRA needs to wake up - membership needs to wake up this sleeping giant.

    3. Rule #3, ' Keep all guns unloaded until ready to use,'
    maybe some do not understand what this means or at
    least to me ... it means hunting firearms unloaded and
    tucked away safely ... it means target shooting
    firearms unloaded and tucked away safely .... it means
    Personal Protection firearms in a ready to use
    condition in less than 1/2 second ... (1/4 second to
    think about it and 1/4 second to do it) ... so
    Personal Protection Rifle and Shotguns rounds in the
    magazines with NO round in the chamber AND pistols
    with a round in the chamber ... "all" either on my body or
    with an arm's length of reach at the most ... along
    with flashlights and knives.

    4. If going to run with the Big Dogs then cannot whine like a puppy, just do it ! maybe the NRA is too close to WASH DC and maybe the NRA HQ personnel who write the manuals need current training and experience.
    -- Need an updated Manual for PPOTH
    -- Need to delete the lawyer and Peace Officer requirement
    -- Need to read and study, the published materials of Sykes, Fairbarn, and Applegate from the 1930's and 1940's ... we have come full circle in the Firearms Training arena



    FACT # 1
    I am "not" the person who sent John Farnam an e-mail therefore I am not the Training Counselor whom John Farnam refers too.

    (I'm not asking you anything about 1st amendment right to free to speech....however why did you post it. Why not just send it in and discuss like adults.)

    FACT # 2
    I received John Farnam's link posted from a friend on an e-mail to me, many miles and across many State borders, from where I am living.

    (Whats your point in posting it then)

    FACT # 3
    I do think it brings to light one error of procedure in the PPOTH manual, there are several other errors and incorrect photo's based on current, 1930's, and 1940's procedures (we have come full circle on training today, we are back to what works, we are back to the 1930's and 1940's - Sykes, Fairbarn, and Applegate). The manual is using some procedures developed in the 1980's and 1990's, mainly for competition and sqaure range. Muscle memory is very key in a defensive encounter unless totally aware of surroundings, one is the reaction mode rather than the action mode and action is always quicker than reaction. This I also concur with.

    (Okay so Put it in writing and send it in if you want it want it looked at.)

    FACT # 4
    John Farnam link does give good credit to the NRA in that without the NRA, we probably would not have what guns we have today. Which I also concur with.

    FACT # 5
    From your item 3, I guess you did not read closely (giving you the benefit of doubt). The quote I posted are not my words but from the link - re-read the link. If you re-read my words, I am agreeing with you words and disagreeing with John Farnam's link in regard to Rule # 3, yes it is about intended "use".

    (According to your first statement The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions. , thats not how you came across!)

    FACT # 6
    I have been provided no materials by the NRA, I have purchased some books from the NRA as I do from many other sources on many topics.
    (Your TC did not give you the materials you are suppossed to teach with?, if you did not recieve lesson plans for each course you are certified to teach then the TC did not do his/her job)

    FACT # 7
    Reading, maybe you are reading and maybe you are not reading, maybe analysis of the words and understanding whom wrote what is your issue. Suggest you re-read the John Farnam link always keeping in mind I am not the one who e-mailed or posted with John Farnam. Per John Farnam's post it was a NRA Training Counselor who posted - as I said before I am not that person.

    FACT # 8
    Why would I even take the time to e-mail or phone someone, who jumps to conclusions, does not take the time to read and analysis to understand what a NRA Training Counselor wrote on John Farnam's web site, what John Farnam wrote on John Farnam's his web site, and what I wrote on Combat Carry - three different individuals, all entitled to their opinion, as paid by the blood of many and all whom have served in the U.S Armed Forces including the U.S. Coast Guard -many of which have served and continue even today to serve with U.S. Armed Forces overseas in designated combat zones. I do not remember the exact quote from WWII and Korea era but something like this - Thank a teacher that you can read, Thank a soldier that you can still read in English.

    FACT # 9 - In Summary:
    a. The NRA Training Counselor points out some errors in the manuals existing in both the PPITH and PPOTH manuals.
    b. John Farnam agrees with the NRA Training Counselor, makes some comments of his own in regard to cold ranges versus hot ranges and gives the NRA the due credit that we might not have firearms today without the NRA past involvement.
    c. My comments, agree with the errors and photo's in the Basic Pistol, PPITH, and PPOTH manuals; agree some of John Farnam's comments and disagrees with his comment of what is meant by "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use" (in other words agrees with your comments); and as you fully know and concur with that is a NRA requirement not a law requirement for the lawyer and Peace Officer, this is a road block to firearms and Personal Protection Training for the Citizens of this Nation, which we (meaning the Country) have never needed.
    d. As I have stated on several posting(s): The NRA Training Class are basic, advanced training foundation is basic training, do not instill incorrect muscle memory at the basic level.
    e. I would not waste my time, e-mailing or talking on a phone with anyone, who does not read or does not analysis what they have read or whatever. For your sake, slow down on jumping conclusions esp when armed, you just might read situation incorrectly and take the

    Based on your comments The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions. . If going to run with the Big Dogs then cannot whine like a puppy, just do it ! maybe the NRA is too close to WASH DC and maybe the NRA HQ personnel who write the manuals need current training and experience.

    You know what fine your abosultley correct. I'm trying to help point you in the right direction of who to go to when you need help. Just like the military there are certain policy's here. To me right now you are only an outsider looking in making judgements and comments based on a lack of knowledge for a program I doubt you have even taken. I also think its a little out of the ordinary how you claim to be the bigger man or adult (based on "reading into your posts") yet you know my Full name, Phone number, Email address, and know what I look like; however, you won't even call or email me to help you with your problems. Until you do I will not take part in anything else you write on this topic.
    I'm sure you will want to respond to this so I guess the bigger man gets in the last word.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    As a Proponent of both the NRA and John Farnam I cannot see what this thread accomplishes . I have recieved certs from the nra , and have taken farnams courses from time to time . Both are great resources , for any instructor . John feels that the NRA courses need updated , he is right , they allways do . The NRA training is structured to the least common denominator , or weakest link if you choose . It is an entry level training that is not nor should it be focused on an advanced skill set . The NRA is a valuable lobby group that offers basic skills training due to a moral imperative to have members and others deal with guns safely in all circumstances . IMHO NRA courses are the " Eddy Eagle " of training for adults . There is nothing wrong with this , and NRA courses reach many folks who otherwise would be un trained . If someone is interested in high speed - low drag courses to expand thier skillset there are a lot of courses out there , the nra does not need to sanction any of them . By the same token some instructors operating under the nra's credibility and certification feel and state that what they offer is all that is needed . Its a tempest in a tea pot , and imho the thread needs not only closed but deleted also .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    As a Proponent of both the NRA and John Farnam I cannot see what this thread accomplishes . I have recieved certs from the nra , and have taken farnams courses from time to time . Both are great resources , for any instructor . John feels that the NRA courses need updated , he is right , they allways do . The NRA training is structured to the least common denominator , or weakest link if you choose . It is an entry level training that is not nor should it be focused on an advanced skill set . The NRA is a valuable lobby group that offers basic skills training due to a moral imperative to have members and others deal with guns safely in all circumstances . IMHO NRA courses are the " Eddy Eagle " of training for adults . There is nothing wrong with this , and NRA courses reach many folks who otherwise would be un trained . If someone is interested in high speed - low drag courses to expand thier skillset there are a lot of courses out there , the nra does not need to sanction any of them . By the same token some instructors operating under the nra's credibility and certification feel and state that what they offer is all that is needed . Its a tempest in a tea pot , and imho the thread needs not only closed but deleted also .
    REDNECK REPAIRS.
    +1
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Basic Training and Advance Training - Basic is the foundation and Advance is the refinement of Basic. Basic is the key, learn muscle memory correctly the first time much easier than re-training.

    ROB Comment # 1
    (I'm not asking you anything about 1st amendment right to free to speech....however why did you post it. Why not just send it in and discuss like adults.)

    Just like any other posts. Open discussion.

    ROB Comment # 2
    (Whets your point in posting it then)

    My reply to # 1 and # 2, same as before; manuals need updating and muscle memory. The NRA Training Counselor and John Farnam both have good points. Lawyer requirement.

    ROB Comment # 3
    (Okay so Put it in writing and send it in if you want it want it looked at.)

    My reply to # 3, you have the internet, do a google.com and amazon.com search for the 3 names; read and study - learn.

    and http://www.sabergroup.com/prod01.htm

    I would encourage all to read POLICE PISTOLCRAFT - The Reality-Based New Paradigm of Police Firearms Training Published in 2006

    I have no financial or personal interest in this company nor do I know the author. It is simply a great read.

    ROB Comment # 4
    (According to your first statement The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions. , thats not how you came across!)

    My reply, came across to you ? Where did I not ?

    ROB Post # 5
    Based on your comments The NRA needs to read John Farnam's words closely and heed his words in actions. . If going to run with the Big Dogs then cannot whine like a puppy, just do it ! maybe the NRA is too close to WASH DC and maybe the NRA HQ personnel who write the manuals need current training and experience.

    My reply:
    Do you think the best way to clear a "(failure to eject (stovepipe)" is written in the PPOTH manual p 325 ?
    Do you think the best way to clear a "failure to go into battery" is written in the PPOTH p 323 ?
    Do you think the best way to clear a "failure to fire" is written in the PPOTH manual pp 323-324 ?

    Why teach three different methods instilling three different muscle memories ?

    Why not just teach the one method in PPOTH manual p 322 ? as stated in the manual "being able to clear just almost all stoppages with only one immediate action drill saves the time of having to analyze the malfunction. Having only one immediate action drill to learn and master also reduces the training time and complexity, and enable you to be able to respond instantaneously anytime a stoppage occurs."

    Just need to teach one method thereby engraining that muscle memory ... as one poster above said "KISS" principle.

    One method versus three methods, one method clears all 3 issues and then leads directly into the dreadful double feed issue.

    ++++

    PPOTH Manual p 214, photo - to close to the car, back off - field of view left and right increases and less chance of glancing round impacting you

    PPOTH Manual p 66, photo - look around when one can not over cover or concealment

    PPOTH Manual p 122, photo - bring the handgun up higher each and every time in this photo about the level of the left hand - draw the same way each and every time

    PPOTH Manual p 104 - expand on the correct way to draw from a fanny pack

    PPOTH Manual pp 165- on - too much emphasis how to stand, too much movement, Personal Protection will be 80% or so very up close and personal, if required act no matter where ever your feet are, do not waste time

    ROB Post # 6
    you won't even call or email me to help you with your problems.

    My reply, These are NRA issues that the NRA can easily fix internally if so chosen. My concern is the with this is as a NRA member, the NRA is limiting the potential of the NRA to instruct many more classes and students (Citizens) (the NRA lawyer requirement - availability of one) in the self-defense of themselves, family, etc - esp with PPITH and PPOTH.

    ROB Post # 6
    To me right now you are only an outsider looking in making judgements and comments based on a lack of knowledge for a program I doubt you have even taken. I also think its a little out of the ordinary how you claim to be the bigger man or adult (based on "reading into your posts")

    My reply, yes based on reading your posts, since we have never met or had correspondence or talked on the phone.
    If have yet to address the NRA lawyer requirement or that the manuals need to be updated in regard to course availability, techniques, etc. Would it not be easier for the NRA Instructors to schedule classes without a lawyer ? Would it not better to teach one technique that works for three stoppages instead of teaching four techniques in the interest of all the reasons stated on p 332 of the PPOTH manual ?


    ROB Post # 6
    I'm sure you will want to respond to this so I guess the bigger man gets in the last word.

    Which I never alluded to or stated any of the sort.

    Closing, NRA does many good things are we would not all be members, but not all members always agree with the NRA - actions or manuals.

    The NRA has the potential to train many more than it does, the main roadblock is the NRA lawyer requirement for PPITH and PPOTH. The NRA needs to ensure it is instructing the correct methods, meaning simple - straight forward - takes the least amount of time - CQB is very up close and personal - simple is good (KISS), straight forward, and takes the least amount of time.

    Whatever the NRA decides on the lawyer requirement and manual update does not affect or effect me or others in my family, but it does affect and effect the Masses Citizens of this Nation - in their Self-Defense capabilities and although the NRA may not have a legal requirement to instruct the Masses of the Citizens of this Nation, due to the NRA Political clout and Training mission a moral obligation seems to come into arena.

    Basic Training and Advance Training - Basic is the foundation and Advance is the refinement of Basic. Basic is the key, learn muscle memory correctly the first time much easier than re-training.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Its a tempest in a tea pot , and imho the thread needs not only closed but deleted also .
    +1+1+1
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  13. #12
    Member Array The Goose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    Its a tempest in a tea pot , and imho the thread needs not only closed but deleted also .

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    +1+1+1

    +1+1

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