How do you know what you are capable of..(w/PHOTOS)

How do you know what you are capable of..(w/PHOTOS)

This is a discussion on How do you know what you are capable of..(w/PHOTOS) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; .....if you do not know what you are not capable of? Force on force has proven the need to step outside of the box and ...

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Thread: How do you know what you are capable of..(w/PHOTOS)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    How do you know what you are capable of..(w/PHOTOS)

    .....if you do not know what you are not capable of?

    Force on force has proven the need to step outside of the box and outside of ones personal comfort zone while training. To repeat ego based marksmanship courses over and over is no longer an adequate path and simply makes no sense. The availability of airsoft guns to the general public has affected a paradigm shift on the gun training community.

    When we look at the learning progression we see the symbiotic relationship between live fire and force on force training. The two go hand in hand and one is very limited without the other. The first step of the learning progression is to learn the fundamentals with live fire. The second step is to take those fundamentals into force on force to find out if those fundamentals will get the job done. This is the point that you find out what works and what doesn’t work.

    After this epiphany, you begin to understand that you need to drop some tools and refine others. The third step is to head back to the range. You can either get some additional reality based training from a qualified instructor or you can learn as much as you can by reading and go to work on things yourself. Whatever path you choose, you need to put in the work on these new skill sets that you have found to be of the most importance to you. Once you have the fundamentals of these new skill sets, you have to take them back into force on force and test them again.

    This symbiotic relationship continues until you have a very good idea what works and what doesn’t work and you have a very solid understanding of your chosen tools. Once you have your tool box streamlined, organized, and very close to exactly where you want it, you need to take things to the next level. You need to find out exactly what you are capable of…..and more importantly…..what you are not capable of.

    Now this is obviously not for the ego driven “tight group only” crowd. This is for those that do not mind pushing their personal limitations to the point where they may fail in front of their peers. This is for the people that learn more from a missed shot than they ever will learn from a perfect hit.

    What is that famous quote “You will only be half as good in a gunfight as you will be on your best day on the range.” Well yeah, if you never find out exactly what you are capable of and exactly what you are not capable of. It is my opinion that you must train within the correct context of the fight. You must understand the way a typical gunfight comes down and work within that context. Since most gunfights are from a reactive position, at very close proximity, with extreme urgency, with both participants moving, possibly in low light, and while dealing with typical physiological responses to a life threatening encounter, one must train in this manner. The only way to train in this manner is to be right on the verge of being past your capabilities.

    If you are not missing shots in training, then you are not pushing yourself hard enough! Check your ego at the door, get to work, and find your personal limitations. To hell with the “tight group only” crowd……they are only target practicing.

    Train for the fight!


  2. #2
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    This is for the people that learn more from a missed shot than they ever will learn from a perfect hit.
    That in itself Roger says much. I train mostly on my own, but have to say the missed shots are very salutary and produce a reaction that ingenders an immediate analysis and then ''get back on that darned horse'' - and try again.

    I think I am rather too old for the big league training now but sure as heck - agree even so ....

    be right on the verge of being past your capabilities.
    That works for me. .... ''Pushing the envelope''.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    New Member Array subcompact9mm's Avatar
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    This is a very serious subject, the linkage between 'train as you fight' and the divergence of the pure marksman. I'm a noob on this board, although I've participated in many similar boards, and carried concealed most my life (duty and ccw), forgive me if I over step my status boundary with my commentary.

    As a firearms instructor, I completely agree with, and actively approach the topic of marksmanship and tactics as one. I feel it is important that we all actively encourage the fundamentals of carry, from litigation and safety, to gear and responsible tactics.

    I completely agree that the best training is in the mindset from the moment you step on the range, and alternating sessions from combatives to the targets is a very good formula. If you only have 50 rounds to train with on your paper session, mix it up. Spend most of your time shooting around a barricade, using several quick round bursts and throw in the odd dummy bullet so you naturally practice immediate action drills. Off the range take your simunitions or airsoft training just as serious. Set aside a certain objective for your force -on- force training, then put on your game face and execute it. Save the beer and ass grabbing for later.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    I ran a group of guys throught the "exploration of the limitations" last weekend. Most of the guys had zero point shooting skills when they showed up (all except for one.)

    Here are some pictures on some of the guys doing some of the drills.

    The context of the pictures is a group of very advanced guys taking their brand new point shooting skills (one day) into the world of dynamic movement on the second day. This course is about combat accuracy. We do a lot of intentional vertical stringing (zippering.) We also do an awful lot of work from extreme angles. What many "tight group only" crowd would consider a miss are in fact good hits at an extreme angle.

    The students are asked to push the limitations at every opportunity. So keep the context in mind. This has nothing to do with ego based marksmanship....it is about training within the context of the "most likely" fight.

    Picture one is a perfect example of exploding off of the X.

    Picture two is working to the obliques.

    Picture three is all about "from any angle and any position.

    Picture four was taken during "the three step rule" while moving to the 6:00.

    Picture five is the lateral drill with dynamic movement.
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  5. #5
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    Reminds me of some self-imposed drills I try and include ....... more and more I place emphasis on movement and shooting as well.

    This stuff is where X ring shooting takes a real back seat!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Picture one, getting to cover and getting to the sights during the S-drill. The S-drill has four innocents in the drill.

    Picture two, the use of an improvised position to get a clear shot.

    Picture three, the use of dynamic movement to open up a clear lane of fire.

    Picture four, perfect example of big boys playing by big boy rules. Very advanced guys in a very advanced course being as safe as possible during realistic training. Sul is a great position!

    Picture five, working for the shot!
    Attached Images

  7. #7
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    Great action pic's Roger ...... I have to imagine the class had a great time all round. Thx.

    SUL is good ..... particularly with several guys doing this stuff and moving around each other at times.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Picture one, fighting for position.

    Picture two, nice picture of a beautiful emergency reload with dynamic movement. Notice the magazine in the air and the one in the hand headed towards the gun.

    Picture three, more on dynamic emergency reloads. Notice the magazine just beginning to exit the gun.

    Picture four, going "controlled" and threading the needle in the S-drill......without the sights. Like this student said, "I only saw my sights a few times all day." And this is a hard core "sights only" instructor from one of the "big box" schools.

    Picture five, doing whatever it takes to make the hit and miss the innocents.
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    Wow - more pics. Sorry I keep interrupting Roger !
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Picture one, a little 'In Quartata" from three quarter hip during the "limited quarters" drill.

    Picture two, "In Quartata" to the left out of Elbow up/elbow down out of the "limited quarters" drill.

    Picture three, zippering (vertical stringing) with dynamic movement to aquire the adversaries flanks.

    Picture four, zippering with the snubby "back up gun."

    Picture five, getting that final head shot of the zipper, without projecting the gun.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Final batch!

    Picture one, putting the "belly gun" to good use.

    Picture two, end of the course and mowing down the target stands out of elbow up/elbow down!

    Picture three, a little Y-hand demo from yours truely!

    Picture four, rocking the Y-hand with a nice use of the compressed elbow up/elbow down.

    Picture five, twelve yards, extreme angle, with movement, without the sights.....and yeah, he got the hit.

    Hey guys, feel free to ask any questions. This stuff is not mainstream, but it is "combat shooting."

    Special thanks to 7677, Matt Temkin, Gabe Suarez, and Dave James for the help putting this course together.
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    Picture three, a little Y-hand demo from yours truely!
    Looks like the target frame broke too
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  13. #13
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    Great Content Roger - Photos Greatly Appreciated

    I truly believe that as our streets become ever more dangerous and the bad guys become badder, younger, more aggressive, and far more likely to do dirty sub-human deeds and work in packs AKA multiples...that effective self-defensive training absolutely needs to continue to morph/change.
    Techniques that used to be reserved for the professional need to be adopted by the ordinary responsible citizen.
    Static, stationary "nice neat" hole punching in paper will certainly no longer cut it.
    The stakes are higher + the real life threat is often more sophisticated as criminals are far less likely to leave victims alive these days even for the commission of more petty crime.
    Illegal drug induced crime is increasing exponentially and the perps are more ruthless and aggressive, many with a total lack of human compassion.
    Yes, you are correct that if one desires to push their personal envelope forward then the actual shooting WILL get worse before it gets better.
    No Pain No Gain.
    It's like learning how to play a new and more complicated song.
    One should naturally and realistically expect it to "take a while" to "get it"
    Constructive practice is what it takes for things to properly register and hit home. There needs to be a method to the madness though and "thought out" direction and that is where a good trainer becomes uber-valuable.
    Great photos Roger.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    You are hard core Roger!

    Thanks for the posts... I am lucky as a civilian, I get to train tactically with LEO's as the medic on the tac team.

    I try to train privately as much as possible and with two or three other close freinds.

    Your posts have given me many idea's for setting up scenario's for meaningful training.

    Thanks... I hope I can call on you in the future for more pics or idea's.

    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Thanks... I hope I can call on you in the future for more pics or idea's.
    No problem, contact me here or at rwphillips@cox.net or at 702-338-2002.

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