simunition training

simunition training

This is a discussion on simunition training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The Airsoft thread got me thinking about simunitions for training. It would be a lot more expensive than airsoft...but being able to use the same ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    simunition training

    The Airsoft thread got me thinking about simunitions for training. It would be a lot more expensive than airsoft...but being able to use the same firearm you carry, feel, running mags dry, etc the things that are harder to simulate with a not real weapon. So I mosey over to their website to get a feel...even thinking about calling around to some of the trainers around here to see what they would think. Then I find this on their website:

    Please note that this program is not suitable for training private citizens or recreational activities.

    To be approved for the Range Program, you must fulfill the minimum requirements, which are;

    * Proof of $1 million liability insurance annually
    * Formal agreement to not train civilians with any of our products (signed by both parties)
    * Formal agreement to not resell our products
    * Mandatory attendance and successful completion of our Scenario Instructor Training Course every 3 years (fees: $550 for first class; $275 for subsequent classes)
    * A minimum purchase to include 5 cases of FX® ammunition, 6 face protectors, and 6 throat protectors (approximate cost: $3500)

    You'd think with all the states that have some form of CCW...and the market for training those people...Simunitions would be a BIT more market savvy than that.
    Am I missing something?
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."


  2. #2
    Member Array Intentional Flincher's Avatar
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    Link?
    A witty saying proves nothing.

    Voltaire

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Their home page

    Their range program page where I found the info I posted
    Their contact page where I found the following
    Simunition® is a product line of General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems Canada Inc. (GD-OTS Canada), and its products are sold exclusively to military, law enforcement and government authorized training agencies. As such, GD-OTS Canada does not forward any information about its products or services to individuals or non authorized entities.

    so even if I wanted to discuss their company policy...it doesn't sound like I'd get any response
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    hmmm, I'm pretty sure that I've seen at least a couple of places that train civilians use simunitions....but then this may be like the 50 round boxes of premium ammunition that the sellers agree to sell only LEO??

  5. #5
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    We train civilians using their FX product.

    Randy

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    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    We also train civilians using their FX product.


    Tom Perroni
    Perroni's Tatcical Training Academy
    http://www.perronitactical.com
    tom@perronitactical.com
    (540) 786-3627

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    I think that the Sims statement is coming more from a liability viewpoint than anything else.
    What they are saying is that unless you do it our way don't even think about doing a lawsuit against us if you screw it up on your own.

  8. #8
    Member Array Cusmar's Avatar
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    Sims are old hat. The new thing is UTM (Universal Training Munition). Instead of using liquid soap they use lipstick like wax in their projectiles. These rounds are more robust (they don't get damaged as easily when loading mags) than the Sims and are not affected by extremes in temprature so much.

    My .02, YMMV.
    "Use enough gun." - Robert Ruark

  9. #9
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    I started using the UTM in '04 and have had nothing but problems with them.

    Failure to feed seemed to be the larger problem, followed by a failure to fire. We had been seeing these problems during training but had no hard numbers on the occurences.

    To determine the failure rate, I fired 50 rounds of markers and found there were 14 failures. 9 failed to feed and 5 failed to fire. The guns and kits (two of each) were clean and in good working order. 3 new magazines were used for the test with failure to feeds occurring with each.

    Randy

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    To those who train with 'em...how do you get around the signed statement thing?
    and when are you moving to Tennessee :-)
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  11. #11
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    I've never signed anything for them.

    Randy

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    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    Last year I spent 45 minutes arguing on the phone with the VP of sales from Simunitions about their policy of not allowing their products to be used to train private citizens. According to him they make no exceptions to their "LEO/Mil only" rule. Ever. Further, according to him, if you are "caught" using them for "civilian" training they will withhold your ability to buy Simunition marking rounds and revoke your Simunitions instructor status.

    It is their right to sell their products to whomever they wish and to dictate their use but I will not do business with them because of those policies.

    I use UTM (both 9mm and .223) and am happy with their performance and their lack of restrictions on their products’ use. They do have a higher failure rate than live ammo but from what I’ve seen it’s comparable with Sims. Any aftermarket system that changes the design specs from OEM will have reduced reliability. I actually don’t mind a ‘click instead of bang’ every now and then because a malfunction makes the scenario that much more stressful and gives my students good practice staying in the fight.
    Shay Van Vlymen - Instructor Tactical Response

  13. #13
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    Can someone provide a link to a UTM website? I can find nothing on them doing a google search... Thanks.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #14
    Member Array frankborelli's Avatar
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    On the civilian side, UTM is N-Range. No marking cartridges available (officially) for training civilians. All UTM marking cartridges are sold through the mil/LE side of the house.

    As an option to Sims or UTM I'd recommend RAM air guns. .43 caliber compressed air power guns. I have two Glock 17s and two M4s made by RAM. VERY rare jams with the M4s which are full auto capable and eject "spent brass" (an aluminum case) when fired. The Glock 17s fit in all holsteres I've got with no problems and handle just like real weapons. You even have magazines for reloads. The .43 Caliber balls are fairly accurate out to about 20 yards and HURT. Think sting of Sims but whelt of paintball.

    Just another option offered. My $0.02 worth and probably not worth that...

  15. #15
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    I did simunitions (sim) and FATS refresher training on Weds...it was interesting to witness my coworkers with various sim and paintball bruises....
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

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