Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge
This is a discussion on Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JMusic
Tangle, sorry we didn't get to meet. Good accurate review of the course and methods described. Instinctive shooting is a term ...
May 26th, 2007 01:43 PM
I wish we could have met too, Jim. I understand what you mean about 'instinctive'. I think the term was misapplied then and has carried forward with somewhat dual meanings. By definition, at least by my dictionary, instinctive means, things we do naturally without training. Since I received training to shoot with the methods presented, they are actually trained techniques, rather than instinctive.
Originally Posted by JMusic
As you point out, instinctive is often mistaken to mean shooting without sights and/or that this is something that just comes naturally. But, if the technique is learned via training, by definition it cannot be instinctive.
The training I got was essentially substituting one 'sight' reference for another. E.g. given that the muzzle is the forward reference on the gun, it replaces the front sight as a reference. Hence, I'm not sure what I learned could be rightly called point shooting since a distinct forward reference on the gun is used. So, if I use the very same method and use the front sight as the front reference and the grip as the rear reference, that would be considered sighted fire. If I use the muzzle as the front reference instead of the sight, then it would be considered point shooting, I guess???? Yet the same technique is used, with the only difference being the front reference point.
Gunsite teaches the front sight/rear grip as an indexing method for close range shooting in their beginning shooting classes, or I was taught it there, I can't say that it's still taught, but I presume it would be.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
May 28th, 2007 12:14 AM
Good explanation, Ron.
If you have to be trained in it, how can it be "instinctive"? I think of point shooting as taking an instintive reference and using it in training to shoot a firearm. Select the firearm to fit your pointing "instinct" and you will leap ahead in your shooting training.
My family, myself, wife and 9 year old daughter took Brownie's rifle Quick Kill training and we all pointed different firearms differently. My wife runs an AK and with a bit of Brownie's time she was making consistant hits with her rifle. My daughter has a .22 AR and she's used to it. Brownie helped her figure out how it points for her and how to make snap shots. I picked my M1A because of a silly challenge from a shooting buddy. My first QK shot was COM and all my subsequent shots were close to the first. Another friend of ours ran a '94 45 LC like a champ and make shot after shot without front/rear sights within a fist sized circle. His rifle snapped to the shoulder and fired right on target just as my M1A.
Ron points out that he has years of success with his 2 hand technique and that 2 hand QK doesn't seem any better. It shouldn't. He's invested time and effort perfecting modern shooting and has great speed and accuracy with it (according to Zack, who attended with him). He should be more comforatable with it and 2 hand QK should be new and slower, but a new shooter like Zack can be quick and accurate rapidly using what Brownie showed him without the thousands of rounds to get there.
May 28th, 2007 09:00 AM
I think we've got a bit of misunderstanding about the time frame. The many years time frame came from a conversation with Brownie. He asked how long I had been shooting with 2H using sights. I answered about 7 years and only later realized I implied it took me 7 years to learn it. It didn't take anywhere near that long. I learned most of it in a week at Gunsite along with many other skills.
Let us not forget that while I am not a trainer, and have no desire to be, I transferred the methods I use to two brothers in three hours and that included draw and fires, reloading, and a number of other skillsets as well.
I'm not trying to compare anything with anything or evaluate anything here, but I do feel it is appropriate to correct an incorrect implication I made to Brownie.
I think it's fair to say that given my background, as you said it well, hso, I would not benefit from QK over 'modern' shooting. And that's ok.
But it's also fair to say that I did pick up some handgun techniques that are beneficial.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
May 28th, 2007 09:10 AM
Thanks for an excellent write up....
"Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.
"...be water, my friend."
May 28th, 2007 10:03 AM
Thanks for explaining that better than I did, Ron.
Years of experience shooting using a solid method that works for an individual makes for a well established neuromuscular "memory". That's a solid reliable "groove" that an experienced shooter drops into right away when they shoot. It just means that alternate techniques won't be as quick nor as accurate right away for them. Only time would tell if there was any differences, but there's no need to find out if there's a solid, fast, reliable "tool" already in your tool box. That's more of what I was getting at.
PS is just another set of good tools for people to pick from to add to the toolbox used to solve problems.
Last edited by hso; May 28th, 2007 at 10:13 AM.
May 28th, 2007 04:57 PM
Glad you had a good experience and were able to walk away with the feeling that your time was well spent.
May 29th, 2007 11:52 AM
A real pleasure hooking up and training with you last week for a few days as well as meeting your wife. I appreciate the time you took to write your thoughts and observations on the course and HTH materials.
Please extend my best wishes to your lovely wife for me. It was also a real pleasure to meet and talk with her as well as getting to meet the companion both of you had along for the trip.
I want to also thank you for your thoughts and comments about the materials presented in the ITFTS course. We hit it hard all week with the private students like yourself and Tangle here. I look forward to our next visit to Knoxville and hooking up again then.
I'm back home in Az after two very long days on the motorcycle covering 1,934 miles in that time. I'll be heading out to New Mexico on June 14th for more training with the NM Insurance Fraud Bureau Det's., then on to Florida the 20th of June to train a police dept in that state.
Thanks to everyone for their participation in the courses during the 9 days in Knoxville as well.
June 2nd, 2007 12:05 AM
Already planning for the next course group around Oct. 13 this year. Things will probably start then and run for another 9 days in Knoxville.
June 3rd, 2007 08:59 PM
Plan on having two nights set aside for the Integrated Threat Focused "Fighting at Night" pistol courses this time around as well as the two day ITFTS pistol curriculum, one day FoF with the use of airsofts, as well as the rifle course and the usual private instruction during the week.
We'll train in ambient light, low light and darkness utilizing various threat focused skills with just night sights, and then the use of various accompanying flashlight skills sets.
Confirm the dates with and send my regards to Dan if you would, then give me a heads up on the confirmation please. Also remind Dan that he and I are supposed to get the local boys in power in for a few hours one day to intro them to the course, and schedule that for us as we get closer to the event.
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