Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge

Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge

This is a discussion on Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I spent Monday and Tuesday with Brownie getting trained in any number of self-defense methods - QK, EU/ED, movement, multiple threats, zippers, QK with a ...

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  1. #1
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    Training with Brownie – 'range' report - merge

    I spent Monday and Tuesday with Brownie getting trained in any number of self-defense methods - QK, EU/ED, movement, multiple threats, zippers, QK with a rifle, and HTH.

    The training was great. Much of the training focuses on close encounters, not all of it but a good portion of it. That fit perfectly into my needs. I’ve had tons of training at some of the best known schools in the nation. They are excellent training, but most of their focus is from 9 feet (3 yards) and longer ranges. They do cover toe-to-toe but there’s not a lot of it, more accurately not enough of it. CQ is very important because most gunfights happen at close range, somewhere between 3 feet to 20 feet and some longer, but most in that range. So Brownie’s techniques that deal with up close fill a void that most schools don’t give quite enough attention to.

    The overall strategy is simple – get the first hit and follow that by rapid fire hits and keep shooting until the threat is eliminated – and don’t get shot in the process. There’s an old saying that some famous guy said that goes something like, “Speed is fine, accuracy is final” or something like that. After this training, I’m not so sure that’s accurate (no pun intended). First let me define accuracy as it applies to this training. Accuracy is simply a hit on the torso – as fast as you can, followed by more hits. The principle here is that a BG cannot shoot accurately, if at all, if he’s being continuously be hit in the torso. Of course, COM hits are preferred, but torso hits should work it means you’re keeping the assailant in a defensive, reactive mode, and you are hurting him. And guys, 5 shots is borderline for one assailant. What we are trying to accomplish is to keep the BG from shooting us until incapacitation occurs.

    One thing that bothers me immensely about SD shooting discussions is the failure to recognize and acknowledge that one shot will likely not incapacitate an attacker. One hit may cause him to react, but it not keep him from returning fire. After all, now he’s in the fight or flight mode. If he fights, he’ll likely start shooting if for nothing else to stop you from shooting him. It is pointless to swap shots with an attacker. You might as well turn and run – you’d get hit less. So I found the shoot first followed by rapid follow-up hits right down my alley. So not only will you see how, but why as well.

    If you train with Brownie, get the HTH too. His HTH techniques are simple, fast, effective, and devastating. The HTH techniques end the confrontation fast. That gives you all kinds of options. If you’re facing two threats you can deal with one, and take on the second in any number of ways, with or without going to your gun. You can control and use one threat as a shield from the second threat. These are simple techniques that work and you can use without putting in years of training and practice. The powerful thing is that while the methods deal with empty hands, knifes, etc., they use essentially the same techniques so you’re not learning a different thing for every different scenarios.

    Now, my disclaimer, not for the training, but for those of us that have practiced and do practice a solid shooting technique. I am very fortunate that I learned proper sighted shooting techniques from the start. As you practice, you just get better. But, with practice the techniques ingrain and are difficult to change. I train with my sights and at 9 feet and greater, I will use my sights. Up close, I now have the option of any number of techniques I learned from Brownie plus a few I’ve learned at other schools. Brownie’s methods work and they are fast for up close encounters. But, and I’m probably gonna start a war here, but I don’t believe properly done sighted fire is any slower than point shooting IF we’re talking about shooting from an extended position. Let me relate a little incident that happened Monday.

    We had been training at 15 feet with QK, starting slow and gradually speeding up. I was doing fine with it. Then Brownie said, “OK, let’s try it full speed – FIRE!” I fired 18 shots about as fast as I could pull the trigger. I had no idea where the shots went. When I finished, Brownie said, “OK, Ron, try it this time without using the sights.” I hung my head because I knew what had just happened. When I went to full speed, trained instincts took over. I aligned the front sight as I extended, as soon as I was at extension, the shot broke – no sighting, the sighting was already done. I was firing I guess as fast as I could pull the trigger, following the sight through recoil and subconsciously shooting in rhythm as I had practiced so many times before. The guy standing beside me said, “Well, I wondered how you were getting such a tight group without using the sights.”

    I said that to say this. If you’ve practiced one technique enough, it becomes instinctive. If you began with proper technique, it is fast and accurate and accuracy can be modified via speed and speed modified by sight picture alignment and dwell time.

    So if you use your sight(s) instinctively via training and you use the right technique, it isn’t slow. But the up close stuff Brownie teaches is simply faster and I can prove it.

    Thanks Brownie – great training.
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  2. #2
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    Thumbs up Thanks Tangle

    Much appreciated to get such a comprehensive report from an individual with an ultra~high degree of personal integrity (that I know for a fact) is 100% above reproach.

    Before you went to shoot with Brownie I was extremely curious as to exactly how it would all go for you personally and if ultimately it would all be worth your while.

    I was aware of all of the places you have shot and how extensively trained you are in some shooting genre - so naturally that really peaked my curiosity as to exactly how much personal benefit you would derive from shooting with Brownie.

    I'm sure that all on this forum will appreciate your totally honest evaluation & it's good to know that you found some value in it.

    One important question remains unanswered.
    Did Brownie buy you that Cold Beer?
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  3. #3
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    QKS,

    I appreciate those kind words. At the risk of sounding totally 'mushed' out, I will say those same words apply to you as well.

    As for the big question:
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    ...One important question remains unanswered.
    Did Brownie buy you that Cold Beer?
    He bought me a steak lunch at Ruby Tuesdays! Wow, it was good! It should have been me buying his though.

    I didn't say this and I should. It can be hard to tell what someone knows/is by talk. It's quite clear to see if someone has the walk to back the talk. Brownie does. I was rather in awe at the apparent depth of Brownie's skill. It is even more apparent in the HTH. It is very easy to tell if someone has used/practiced what they're teaching. The flow of the moves are fast, decisive, effective, and without hesitation. And that's what I saw in Brownie; it's not fluff, it's the real deal.

    And it seems I can't say anything without a qualifier attached to it somehow. But I guess that's important because more than one thing works, some better than others, etc. and we have a wide variety of shooters. So with regard to shooting per se, say at 6 feet and beyond, in the spirit of trying to keep a level playing field, I have seen the very same attributes in sighted shooters. My instructors at Blackwater were simply amazing shooters and front sight press all the way.

    There is some question as to 'come up to speed' issues. Part of the thought behind Brownie's technique is that a non-shooter can come up to speed faster and retain the skills longer than with sighted fire. I simply can't agree or disagree; I'm not sure anybody really can because of so many variables. For example, I trained two brothers to shoot using the front sight. They had little, if any experience shooting. I probably had no more than three hours with them and that was over three separate lessons. In that same time, I had to teach a draw stroke, sight acquisition, extension firing, speed reloading, and tactical reloading. Then we all went to Blackwater for the level I handgun course and they were comparable to anyone in the class, well except for me - I just had to add that didn't I.

    But I have also taught others that didn't pick things up that quickly; some have been down right frustrating. At that time I was shooting from a Weaver, and there's nothing wrong with the Weaver, but I'm trying to train myself to go to the 'I' stance. Anyway, she absolutely could not get in a Weaver stance. I don't mean she couldn't at speed, I mean she couldn't get in a Weaver stance in five minutes. So there are a lot of variables. Some may actually do better with one than another.
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  4. #4
    hso
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    Glad to see that the experience was worthwhile and I'm sorry I didn't have time to drop by and meet you!

    I tell folks that there are tools that are better suited for different tasks. Point Shooting has tools that are intended for very close defensive shooting where speed is critical and you're already behind your attacker's action. Extend the range and 2-handed shooting, front/rear sighted or ITFS, has advantages. Extend the range further and "modern" shooting takes over and PS falls off. The ranges that the different tools can be used to good effect are bit different for every shooter, but the general rules when to apply them still fit.

    BTW, did you notice that Brownie had a very nice set of trit/fiber optic sights on his Glock? He's never said that sights aren't needed, but that you don't need them all the time.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by hso View Post
    ...BTW, did you notice that Brownie had a very nice set of trit/fiber optic sights on his Glock? He's never said that sights aren't needed, but that you don't need them all the time.
    I did; even commented about it. If fact he mentioned that when it's too dark to see the gun, his reference is the the tritium sight.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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  6. #6
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    Great defensive handgun class!

    Integrated Threat Focused Training- I have read reviews about this course before attending, but none of those quite did the experience justice. Likewise if you’re lucky enough to train with Brownie- you will feel the same about mine.

    I have a martial arts background and spent years on empty hand, stick and knife training. All of my “martial arts friends” believe martial arts training to be the answer to every self defense situation.

    I was already very experienced in Filipino martial arts before getting my carry permit. When I started shooting at the range- I made several friends who are experienced and trained shooters- some are IPSC competition guys. They saw the world through tinted range goggles and tended to ignore the possibility of needing other fighting skills. I longed for some quality (think Delta Force) gun training that would work on the street. After three years – I met Rob Brown on this forum.

    Brownie has a unique and natural way of bridging the gap between empty hand and defensive handgun concepts. At the beginning of the course- he explained the first core skill, demonstrated it. Walked us through the motion, and in three minutes had us shooting 4-5 rounds center-mass on the target in the time it would take a person to draw and aim!

    I think the course could be called “Jedi Handgun Training.” After several drills, Brownie smiled and said, “Now you’re going to shoot an attacker behind your back.” I thought- “Bull Crap. There’s no way you can effectively do that! I don’t have an Annie Oakley mirror, and it doesn’t sound safe.” Followed by: “Geeze this is crazy.” I stepped up to the line, He carefully walked me through it, taking care not to “laser” myself, him or anybody else. When I was in position he said, “shoot.” So I squeezed the trigger in this wild stance- and produced a hole in the target dead center at chest height. Wow! No matter how many times I did it or what speed the results were the same- accurate centermass shots.

    That’s how the whole day went- show the skill, do the skill slow, repeat it faster 5-8 magazines, move on. The incredible thing about the training is you OWN the technique, no need to think about it- it’s natural and instinctive. At lunch and the end of the day he shared the history of the drills and gave some sage insight on how and when to use each.

    After the day of training I had gone through over 1200 rounds and had a serious case of “Glock Finger” where the trigger guard had worn the skin off the side of my middle finger knuckle. I gained so much confidence in my ability to handle a gun it was incredible.

    Everyone – regardless of experience and background would benefit from attending the course. I forever have a different view of point shooting, and these skills blend seamlessly with my existing abilities.
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  7. #7
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    Great write up from Tangle ..... and a good many stimulating pieces of food for thought



    Kylebce ......... I am gonna merge your other thread start into here for completeness.
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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Tangle , thanks for the review It was a great one since it addressed what you learned from brownie that you had not otherwise . ( a note to brownie , if you buy me steaks and beer , as well as take me shooting i will look favorable on you too lol ) . None the less my opinion is that everyone needs to know unaimed fire ( i wont call it instinctive , since the only instinctive reaction to violence is either to punch back or suck your thumb ) and aimed fire . IMHO brownie including some " unarmed defense techniques " to his courses is a dammed high vote for a moral man . In all honesty there are some trainers i feel will sell you a cuppa nothing , and some worse than that . Brownie , Matt 7, ect that post here i respect , not allways agree with but do respect . again thanks for the review , and glad you learned .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  9. #9
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    RR,

    I think we're on the same page about 'instinctive'. Instinctive by definition is something we do without being trained to. However, I do believe there is such a thing as trained instinctive shooting. It is not something that is learned in a day or 5 days of training. But rather training that is practiced consistently and often so that it becomes ingrained. It becomes our natural response. We do it from the subconscious. For example, my trained instinctive shooting is to go to sights. I've just seen it happen too many times to ignore it.

    The problem with trained instinctive shooting is it may not be deeply ingrained enough.If it is not really deeply ingrained, it is very possible that the trained instinct will be over-ridden by the inborn and untrained instinct(s), which won't be good as you alluded to.

    BTW, Brownie does not include HTH in his courses. I paid for the handgun, again for the rifle, and I specifically requested the HTH and paid for that too. Sorry if I gave the impression it was three in one - it wasn't.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    Tangle I firmly belive there is such a thing as " ergonomic indexing " where a pistol will fit your grip and basicly point like a finger . For me some 1911s some sigs , some kahrs , and virtualy no glocks will do this . I also think brownie , or about any of the " point and click interface " instructors can teach anyone to hit ( at closer ranges say under 10 yards ) with any handgun . Tho at times i belittle the point shoot skills , i do consider them a vital tool , i just worry about beyond 15 , 25 , or even 50 yards . balance is hard to find
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  11. #11
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    RR,

    Brownie shoots a Glock. When he changes to a gun with a 1911 grip angle, it takes a while for him to switch 'gears' so to speak, about 2000 rounds if I recall correctly.

    When we speak of extended arm positions, which is what I use unless the situation dictates that I can't, then when I switch from a 1911 type grip angle to a Glock, I simply see no change over. If you look at the indexing mechanics, it's clear why that's so.

    Point shooting relies on the grip as one index point to establish the angular position of the gun both vertically and laterally. Hence, the grip angle is a crucial part of the index. Some part of the gun is another index. Generally, and this is the way Brownie does it, the end of the muzzle. If it's too dark to see the end of the muzzle, he uses the front tritium sight. Makes you go hmmm, why not just use the sight all the time as the front reference? Then you wouldn't have a daylight reference and a different dark reference.

    But, when the grip angle changes, the rear index changes so the impact point changes vertically and possibly laterally too if the hand fits the grip differently until the rear reference point, the grip, can be adjusted to compensate for the grip angle.

    Still talking extended arms, when the sights are used a bunch of stuff is different. For one, the rear index is visual instead of mechanical, or I like the way you put it, ergonomical. Second, there are two reference points on the gun itself, front sight and the rear sight. If the technique is executed correctly, the peripheral vision will pick up the front sight as the gun extends. The grip becomes a secondary reference point allowing the gun to be roughly indexed. The final alignment is visual with the alignment of the front and rear sights. It may sound complicated, but if it is practiced consistently it is done subconsciously at subconscious speeds.

    Since final alignment depends on the front and rear sights, the grip angle becomes almost insignificant. Now, just to see if that really happens, not like I haven't done this before, but tomorrow I'm gonna try to go to the range. I've just shot 1000+ rounds through a gun, Beretta 92FS, with a 1911 grip angle, or at least a significantly different grip than a Glock. I'll do five rapid draw and fires with my Glock 17, cold - first five shots of the day and see where the hits go.

    Granted there are times when the arms cannot be extended. But, point shooting from the hip is not the only option and may not be the best option. It may be best to use some HTH techniques to gain a positional advantage and gain time and distance. Then, you can extend and shoot with the sights. The situation must dictate.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    All that Fairbairn and Sykes meant by the term instinctive is the ability to point one's index finger at a target and be "on."
    And this is the core principle of their point shooting system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I spent Monday and Tuesday with Brownie getting trained in any number of self-defense methods
    Who?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    ccw9mm,

    He's a trainer that posts here and teaches a method called QuickKill. It uses three reference points other than the sights - the grip, the muzzle, and a point on the target/threat below the point of impact that is predetermined via practice. If it's to dark to see the muzzle you use the tritium front sight as the reference instead of the muzzle.

    If I substitute the reference points as rear sight, front sight, and a point on the target/threat exactly where you want to hit, there's little difference in concept except the impact point doesn't change nearly as much with distance to the threat with sights.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    Tangle, sorry we didn't get to meet. Good accurate review of the course and methods described. Instinctive shooting is a term and method that does not limit to gun handling. Instinctive shooting has been used for centuries to describe an unsighted method in shooting bows. I first read of it in one of Howard Hills longbow methods. I think what it means to most people who use it, is the ability to hit what you shoot at without "sighted" fire. No doubt though "aimed" fire is essential part of point shooting.

    Jim
    Last edited by JMusic; May 26th, 2007 at 11:54 AM.

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