Lowering The Bar In AZ

This is a discussion on Lowering The Bar In AZ within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey all. Sorry if I'm reviving an old topic or other--more recent--threads that I missed. Anyhoo . . . . here's my $0.02 I took ...

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Thread: Lowering The Bar In AZ

  1. #1
    Member Array Gadfly's Avatar
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    Lowering The Bar In AZ

    Hey all. Sorry if I'm reviving an old topic or other--more recent--threads that I missed. Anyhoo . . . . here's my $0.02

    I took my AZ CCW 8-hour class yesterday and it was, well--eye opening to say the least. We started the class with range work. The instructor must've eyeballed us and given us more credit than we deserved because he decided to waive the 5-yard qualify and do everything at 10 yards. Big deal, right? Well, for some it was a big deal.

    We had guys who couldn't remember to keep their fingers off the trigger between shots (despite repeated admonishments), who couldn't keep their firearm pointed downrange (yikes!), who couldn't operate a mag release (duh), who couldn't figure out which way the cylinder turned on their revolver (double-duh) and who couldn't keep from yanking on the trigger. The trigger yanker was DQ'd several times but we voted to give him another chance (several times) until--out of desperation--he was marched 5 paces closer and STILL barely managed to stay in the minimum target box. [Lowered standards strikes again, I guess, as nobody in the class actually got DQ'd]

    Even more eye-opening was talking to a couple of these rocket surgeons during the breaks. Scaaaa--rryy!!

    The instructor was rolling his eyes a lot and muttering out loud stuff like "haven't you guys ever practiced?" or "you need to work on shooting your gun!" and "have you ever fired this thing?" and so on.

    I'm all for the 2nd Amendment . . . blah-blah, but I also support the *militia* aspect of the 2nd. I especially believe in the militia standard (able-bodied, mentally sound, and *trained* types) when it comes to carrying concealed handguns (sure, let any schmoe keep his shotgun by his bed as far as I'm concerned).

    This may be heresy to say on this site in particular, but I don't see it as a God-given *right* to carry concealed. I think it's bending the meaning of the 2nd's right to keep and bear.

    Just think, in a few weeks the state of Arizona will have another crop of dim-witted incompetents who can't hit the side of a barn packing heat. And just because Murphy hasn't reared his knotty head doesn't mean he won't--someday. Would you want one of your loved ones to be standing nearby when that goes down? Me neither.

    If you really want to impress the gungrabbers and liberals, states should make the CCW crowd something to point to and say "this is how it should be done".

    OK, [let the flamefest begin . . . .]
    Don't forget to bow as the chariot passes.

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  3. #2
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    Its a slippery slope between mandatory training standards and raising the bar so high no one is willing to try. Yes everyone should be competent enough to hit a t 5 yrds and keep em in the 7 ring.
    this thread ties into Limatunes thread on CC lifestyle too.
    Here
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=26477
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    We all have to start somewhere, at least these people are trying to do the right thing. with practice, experience and training any of them could be very competent with guns in the future.

    They may end up watching your six one day...

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    I hear what you're saying, but do these folks have to *start* at the finish line? I don't know if I feel comfortable with hoping that the CCW holder gets some training and practices someday.

    As was discussed in the Limatunes thread above, the decision to carry should *not* be some notion, whim, or passing fancy. It is a commitment and a big responsibility, not just the sloppy thinking of "it's my right".

    I believe that part of the responsibility of carrying concealed should be the presumption of the applicant's familiarity and competence with a firearm.

    Here's an idea: what if the *renewal* of a CCW license required some sort of continuing education credits like completion of a handgun training or pistolcraft class? How onerous would that be to any serious CCW holder?
    Don't forget to bow as the chariot passes.

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    Member Array JMusic's Avatar
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    Its hard for training junkies to go through a CCW class. Believe me when I went through TN.'s in 96 I was shocked! But think about it. My Mother In Law when she was alive carried a 6" Iver Johnson all the time. I or her son loaded it for her. It stayed with her 24/7. My mother has her nickled 36 with her and I have never seen her shoot. Would you deprive these people of self protection? We have to keep these people in mind when we discuss the incompetence of the class. I for one am impressed they have the fortitude to not only go for their license but are willing to defend themselves. At least they are realists in who is responcible for their well being.

    Jim

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    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    The more restrictions we agree to then the more we enable the antis, if we allow them to limit carry permits to only those who have taken certain ongoing training then they will insist that it is broadened.
    Soon only people who can afford the mandated training will be able to afford to carry.

    These limitations would be used against us.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I think nobody should HAVE to get training or a permit to carry concealed. It should be our RIGHT.

    Criminals do not go out and get concealed carry permits to be within the law so when they pull their weapon out to rob someone they are compliant, permits and laws only affect us law abiding citizens, mostly in our pocketbook.

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    Just think, in a few weeks the state of Arizona will have another crop of dim-witted incompetents who can't hit the side of a barn packing heat. And just because Murphy hasn't reared his knotty head doesn't mean he won't--someday. Would you want one of your loved ones to be standing nearby when that goes down? Me neither.
    I think it's pretty likely that people who don't really have enough interest in firearms to become familiar with them or practice will tire of carrying a pistol quickly...it is a commitment to a new lifestyle (as Limatunes' thread points out)...
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

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    For more related info on this subject see HERE, please not that referenced thread was eventually locked...

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    Member Array Gadfly's Avatar
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    I'm OK with Granny packing to protect herself. Stuff like that.

    Maybe it's just that I visualize scenarios of 3rd party attacks in a public venue with Rambo CCW holders (with zero weapon competence) choosing to get into the fray with bullets flying everywhere. Just scares me silly.

    At least the CCW class puts the fear of liability into our would-be Rambo heads.
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    Here in WA, there is no training or shooting to getting a ccp. Background and finger print check only. It is up to the permit holder to train to where they feel competent with their weapon. I can see some concerns with our no training requirement, but the right to bear arms and to self-defense out weigh any new government regulation imho. (and the states for now) luteai
    "Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be Happy" Ben Franklin

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    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Maybe it's just that I visualize scenarios of 3rd party attacks in a public venue with Rambo CCW holders (with zero weapon competence) choosing to get into the fray with bullets flying everywhere. Just scares me silly.
    This is the argument that the antis use to counter the very notion of concealed carry. I'm with Rocky on this one. The slope is too slipery to require "government approved" training standards. I realize that a lot of places already have this though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    I'm OK with Granny packing to protect herself. Stuff like that.

    Maybe it's just that I visualize scenarios of 3rd party attacks in a public venue with Rambo CCW holders (with zero weapon competence) choosing to get into the fray with bullets flying everywhere. Just scares me silly.

    At least the CCW class puts the fear of liability into our would-be Rambo heads.
    Also note that most CC shootings have been single holder encounters, sometimes with multiple BG's. The CC holder group blazing away at any/everything has not happened(that I am aware of).
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Driving a car requires a test, thats because it's considered a privledge, not a right.

    Carrying a firearm is a right, there should be no requirements placed on ability to use one on anyone. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, seems to readily explain why there should never be a minimum proficiency requirement pretty well to my thinking [ even though states like Az require one presently ].

    How we deem others abilities [ or lack thereof ] to handle and use a firearm is subjective based on our own skills and determination of what constitutes a person who can handle a weapon proficiently. Being subjective in nature, means the minimum standard would be different in some way only limited to the number of people who were asked that question.

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