Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder

This is a discussion on Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The one big advantage of position sul is that it safely allows a real 360 degree check on the range without sweeping everybody behind or ...

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Thread: Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder

  1. #16
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    The one big advantage of position sul is that it safely allows a real 360 degree check on the range without sweeping everybody behind or to either side of you. Any unnaturalness or discomfort is more than made up for by actually encouraging people to thoroughly check behind them as part of their post fight drills.
    Exactly.

    Although the technique was developed for use in a team environment, you can readily see how it would be equally useful to someone in a self defense situation.

    Pointing the handgun at the ground is the "safest" direction available for just about any situation you will be in on the street - keeping in mind there is no "downrange" or "safe" direction in that environment. Without sul or a similar technique, you are pointing your gun at the other people who may be present when you turn to check 360 or move out of the area.

    The elbows do stick out a bit but they can be tucked if need be. If not tucked, they can be a reminder to stay away from the walls, skip fire being what it is.

    I would be interested in other positions that keep the gun pointed away from people with the same ease of use as sul.

    I totally agree that threat identification is a very important skill for citizens with a carry permit. All the rest we have been discussing is for the times when that fails.

    I have yet to see any LE guys teach a 'zipper'. I really question the value of shots that will impact the ground or low on the suspect. I also question the ability to explain to a jury exactly what a 'zipper' is and why it is a part of your training program. Do you have any additional information here?

    Randy

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  3. #17
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    So are you saying that Sul is the solution to square range training so you don't sweep your shooting buddy just so some instructor can see you check your six?
    Since I responded to the sul position comment in my previous post (while you were typing), I'll answer here too.

    Square range training teaches/reinforces bad habits (or more precisely, techniques that do not work well on the street) - and I know you know that. [;)]

    Sul (or safety circle) is a solution to keep your handgun (or long gun) pointed in the "safest" direction available.

    Take the Modesto shooting for example. Long story short, the officer had made entry on a search warrant. He was armed with a Benelli Shotgun loaded with slug rounds. At one point, someone ordered 11 year old Alberto Sepulveda to the floor. Sepulveda ended up lying down at the doorway into a bedroom from the common hallway.

    The officer stepped over Sepulveda to get out of the way of other officers. As he did so, his shotgun was pointed down at Sepulveda and it discharged. The officer later testified that the handle of the fixed blade knife on his tactical vest got into the trigger guard and activated the trigger. The slug killed the kid. This led to an obvious law suit as well as involvement by the State Attorney General and eventually the State Legislature.

    It could have all been prevented if the officer had been pointing his
    shotgun in the safest direction possible. This is just one example of why we talk about and train to keep the weapon pointed in the safest direction possible instead of covering someone who doesn't need to be shot.

    Randy
    Last edited by Randy; June 7th, 2007 at 11:02 PM.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Really good posts, one and all.

    The reality of the "most likely" fight is something that everyone should look at. My course is based on the exact same concepts that have been preached here. I do things slightly differently than DCJS and Randy....and more like 7677. But the context of the fight is very much the same.

    I am also very big on one handed shooting.

    My course is built around the "see what you need to see" concept of the integration of sighted fire and point shooting along with dynamic movement.

    Funny the way things have changed over the last six or seven years.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    The elbows do stick out a bit but they can be tucked if need be. If not tucked, they can be a reminder to stay away from the walls, skip fire being what it is.
    I can be slow at times but why are you moving down a hallway in SUL when there is potential for someone to shoot at anytime?

    I would be interested in other positions that keep the gun pointed away from people with the same ease of use as sul.
    I gave you two already and you can add low ready to that list.

    I have yet to see any LE guys teach a 'zipper'. I really question the value of shots that will impact the ground or low on the suspect. I also question the ability to explain to a jury exactly what a 'zipper' is and why it is a part of your training program. Do you have any additional information here?
    Randy
    Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t make it so. Furthermore, none of the rounds impact on the ground because the weapon is not fired until your weapon is aligned on the target. Depending on the size of your attacker, the first round should impact above the beltline, the next round should hit in the liver area, sternum, upper chest/neck and the last shot is in the head.

    Since want to talk about Grand Juries and deadly force lets look at the following court cases:

    Tennessee v. Garner:
    The court stated, where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect posed a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction or serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, feasible, some warning has been given.

    Forrett v. Richardson
    An officer shot a fleeing unarmed burglary suspect who had shot a person during the burglary. The court Stated: the suspect need not be armed or pose an immediate threat to officers at the time of the shooting.

    Montoute v. Carr
    The court found that: [although the suspect] never turned to face [the pursuing officer], and never actually pointed the sawed-off shotgun at anyone.... There was nothing to prevent him from doing either, or both, in a split second. At least where orders to drop have gone unheeded, an officer is not required to wait until an armed and dangerous felon has drawn a bead on the officer or other before using deadly force.

    Plakas v. Drinski
    There is no precedent in the Circuit (or any other) which states that the constitution requires law enforcement officers to use all feasible alternatives to avoid a situation where deadly force can be justifiably used. There are, however, cases which support the assertion that, where deadly force is otherwise justified under the constitution, there is no constitutional duty to use non-deadly alternatives first.

    In closing,
    Graham v. Connor
    The court stated that: based on a totality of the circumstances the reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of the reasonable officer on the scene, rather then the 20/20 vision of hindsight and the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowances for the facts that police officers are often forced to make split second decisions in circumstances which are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving.

    What the Grand Jury wants to know…was the use of deadly force justified. For a CCW, that will depend of the state laws. In none of the above court cases hinged on the techniques use to employee the deadly force. What the courts have said is if the use of deadly force was justified, then the means to carry out the deadly force is not in question unless it was cruel or inhumane.

    One can articulate that in CQB stopping the attack ASAP is necessary to prevent them from shooting you in return and at two feet is not the time to fire two rounds and access.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    It could have all been prevented if the officer had been pointing his
    shotgun in the safest direction possible. This is just one example of why we talk about and train to keep the weapon pointed in the safest direction possible instead of covering someone who doesn't need to be shot.
    The real issue here is muzzle discipline and management when dealing with threats, unknowns, and friendlies.

    At the time you draw your weapon and use your weapon to defend yourself you may only know who is the immediate threat and once you have dealt with him everyone you will face is a unknown and could be either a friendly or foe. In most situations, people that mean no harm to you are getting out of Dodge and those that mean you harm are closing in. However, once you have made the determination that a person is a friendly I agree with you 100% you do not point your weapon at them.

    However, to immediately go to SUL automatically to check six after you have been in gunfight is putting cart in front of the horse. I can see going to Sul or low ready if you see a friendly while scanning so you don’t sweep them with your muzzle.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    So are you saying that Sul is the solution to square range training so you don't sweep your shooting buddy just so some instructor can see you check your six?

    If I'm in a shootout, BTDT, I'm only concerned about not sweeping my team mates which I simply lower the gun however everyone else is a potential threat and gets the business end of my weapon.
    If I'm in a shootout, I'm going to fight like I train (whether I want to or not). Position sul isn't so some instructor can see me check six, it's so I can check six. Checking six is important; I don't want to get killed in a fight because I didn't see the BG's buddy sneaking up behind me with a tire iron. The best way to make sure I do that in a real situation is to actually incorporate it into training. If I were to say, "ok here's where I would turn around and check six in a real situation, but I won't because this is just training and I don't want to sweep everyone" (which is what you seem to be suggesting) then I'm probably not going to check six when the real time comes. If I'm used to doing actual 360 degree scans, then it's a lot more likely that I'll do it in a gunfight. Training should be as realistic as possible. Position sul is one more tool to help make it that way.

  8. #22
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply and additional information.

    I can be slow at times but why are you moving down a hallway in SUL when there is potential for someone to shoot at anytime?
    So you are not covering anyone with your handgun (rifle/shotgun) when deadly force is not justified.

    I gave you two already and you can add low ready to that list.
    Right you are. The first one has a great potential to put your support hand in front of the muzzle should you have to shoot quickly. The second one, well, I guess I am having trouble understanding how hiding the gun low behind your leg gets it into action faster than sul - economy of motion being what it is. The low ready is OK, but it doesn't keep the gun pointed in the "safest" direction. Maybe I should have asked for additional "safe and practical" positions. :)

    Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t make it so.
    You are exactly right. Likewise, when someone makes an assertion (in this case that a particular technique has merit) they also assume the burden of proof. If this helps any, in thinking about it a bit more, I do seem to recall a method where the revolver was fired from belt line and a quick follow up shot was delivered. The theory was the recoil from the first shot would push the gun upwards (and align it with HCOM) for the second shot. Is this the basis of 'zipper'?

    Furthermore, none of the rounds impact on the ground because the weapon is not fired until your weapon is aligned on the target. Depending on the size of your attacker, the first round should impact above the beltline, the next round should hit in the liver area, sternum, upper chest/neck and the last shot is in the head.
    This all seems very difficult to perform with the precision required to make the hits in the indicated areas, giving that you are (should be) moving off the line while drawing and firing. Maybe it works well on the range but I have doubts that it will work as stated under stress. Now if you are just firing at the person and some rounds happen to hit low, OK, that happens - I am just having trouble with the notion that this is something you should train to do or a skill that one could reasonably be expected to perform on demand in the 'heat of the moment'. Additionally, there isn't time for multiple trigger pulls in the time it takes to rotate the pistol towards the HCOM area of the threat.

    Court cases considered, I am still very uncomfortable with the thought that I would have to defend this technique in court should it ever come to that.

    I guess this is one of the topics where we will have to agree to disagree. You obviously feel comfortable with it and are teaching it and I really hope it helps someone down the road. I'll stick with training to target the areas which contain the more "critical areas".

    The courts have been (surprisingly) pretty favorable towards LE and cases of "accidental shootings". Can we say the same for citizen shootings?

    Randy

  9. #23
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    However, to immediately go to SUL automatically to check six after you have been in gunfight is putting cart in front of the horse. I can see going to Sul or low ready if you see a friendly while scanning so you don’t sweep them with your muzzle.
    I wouldn't say that you should check your six immediately after shooting someone, but you should do it soon after the immediate threat is no longer a threat. It is during this time that one could/would employ the sul or other position that keeps your muzzle off of people you don't intend to shoot.

    You are exactly right - it is muzzle discipline we are discussing.

    Randy

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    If I'm in a shootout, I'm going to fight like I train (whether I want to or not). Position sul isn't so some instructor can see me check six, it's so I can check six. Checking six is important; I don't want to get killed in a fight because I didn't see the BG's buddy sneaking up behind me with a tire iron. The best way to make sure I do that in a real situation is to actually incorporate it into training. If I were to say, "ok here's where I would turn around and check six in a real situation, but I won't because this is just training and I don't want to sweep everyone" (which is what you seem to be suggesting) then I'm probably not going to check six when the real time comes. If I'm used to doing actual 360 degree scans, then it's a lot more likely that I'll do it in a gunfight. Training should be as realistic as possible. Position sul is one more tool to help make it that way.
    Which leads me to my next question, in all of those FoF senerios you did, did you stand around in one place or did you move? If you moved, why did you stop and go into SUL to check your six? Why didn't you keep on moving to cover or in a circle to clear your six?

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    Which leads me to my next question, in all of those FoF senerios you did, did you stand around in one place or did you move? If you moved, why did you stop and go into SUL to check your six? Why didn't you keep on moving to cover or in a circle to clear your six?
    I don't stop to check six in either force on force or live fire scenarios unless I've got a good piece of cover I want to stay behind. Absent cover, I'll keep moving and check six in position sul. Once I'm sure that there's no immediately threat in any direction, then I'll probably stop and do a tac reload.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    I've learned and used almost all of the "readies." But since we are talking about the "most likely" fight we should also look at the "most likely way that we will fight."

    The reality of the situation is that in a real world gun fight ....people get covered. At the time, people are mostly concerned with their survival. People tend to stay pointed in, until their world is safe.

    I realize and accept that I will stay pointed in until my world is safe. I may quickly avert my muzzle to not cover known friendlies....but I am staying pointed in for the most part.

    Ready positions are an absolute must on the range.....not so in the real world. I use SUL in my training courses so that the training is safe.....real gunfights are inheritly not safe. They are so unsafe that I know I will be pointed in so I can increase my chances of survival.

  13. #27
    Member Array Alien Nation's Avatar
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    This has been some interesting reading. Some of this stuff is similar to the ways and the hows of the training I received.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    The zipper is becoming more and more popular. As I cruise the gun forums I have found MANY people advocating the zipper. This is not some far fetched, Johnny come lately technique. This is a well established and highly acceptable technique that has been around for decades.

    As 7677 does, I also teach the zipper. It is part of our point shootig course. Since we specilize in this form of shooting, the idea of shooting throughout the drawstroke using our substantial point shooting skills comes as natural to us and our students as a drawstroke without shooting throughout it. This is what we train for, this is what we specialize in.

    The technique (when taught correctly) is a no brainer and is nearly as accurate with movement as it is stationary. Point shooting (when taught correctly) gives one a consistant index that transitions into dynamic movement beautifully. Dynamic movement is what point shooting is all about. The two go hand in hand like burgers and fries.

    The zipper is just a biproduct of this symbiotic relationship.

    The idea of defending a "techniqe" in the court of law is ridiculous. This reminds me of people saying that point shooting can not be defended in a court of law. I challenge anyone to show me a court case that was a "good shoot" that went south due to a technique that was used. It is either a justifiable use of deadly force or it is not......period.
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; June 8th, 2007 at 02:03 AM.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    I wouldn't say that you should check your six immediately after shooting someone, but you should do it soon after the immediate threat is no longer a threat. It is during this time that one could/would employ the sul or other position that keeps your muzzle off of people you don't intend to shoot.

    You are exactly right - it is muzzle discipline we are discussing.

    Randy
    I'll ask you the same question why are you standing around out in the open and not moving to cover or to a position of advantage?

    Right you are. The first one has a great potential to put your support hand in front of the muzzle should you have to shoot quickly. The second one, well, I guess I am having trouble understanding how hiding the gun low behind your leg gets it into action faster than sul - economy of motion being what it is. The low ready is OK, but it doesn't keep the gun pointed in the "safest" direction. Maybe I should have asked for additional "safe and practical" positions. :)
    We are talking about moving around with the gun in a safe direction aren't we? If you have unknowns within close proximately and want to get around them the sul position is ripe pickens for a grab. however, if you point the gun downward lower on your body and use your other hand to move/push away someone with the deer in the head light syndrome gives you both retention and place your gun in a safe direction without requiring both hands. If the person goes bad on you goto EU/ED position and shoot.

    The gun is placed behind your leg so your potential attacker does not see it and we did this a lot during traffic stops and while clearing areas in public places without causing undue alarm. Moving around at SUL would notify everyone that something is up and you have a gun.

    How is low ready not keeping your gun not in the safest area? The gun is either on or off the target?

    Shooting throughout your drawstoke is taught at Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) and another version of it was a taught when I went through the academy at Dallas in 1995. FLETC trains over 30,000 students per year and I personally know of two cases where the zipper was used the first one the agent zippered a guy with his J-frame revolver (5 rounds) and another one of our officers did it with his 9mm service auto and both shooting were ruled justified and the Grand Jury no billed both of them. I have no problem defending it...especially when you consider how many incidents where officers spray-n-pray 30 or 40 rounds down range and only hit two or three times. Now those are the incidents that are hard to present/defend other then that is life and I’ve personally seen it happen several times both in the military and in law enforcement.

    We are talking about CQB shooting here and at under 7 yards I have no problem with getting the necessary accuracy with the zipper drill to make the necessary hits.

    I have a simple drill for you to try with sims or air soft guns. At 3 to 5 yards, one person shoots from EU/ED and the other shoots from full extension and see who gets the first shot on the other. Next, the person that shoots from EU/ED continues the drawstoke and continues to fire until the and the other shoots once he reaches full extension and see how many shots you get in before and the amount of extension you make it to before the full extension guy gets off his first round off. The results might surprise you.

    I'm holding a get together this August and officers from several agencies are going to attend you are more then welcome to join and see for yourself.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    There are two distinct schools of thoughts on the best placement of shots.

    We have the modern guys that state that they need to be in the thoracic cavity.

    We have the old timers that state that shots spread out through the torso is the best way to go. Many of then swear by shots to the groin and the stomach.

    I have learned from both camps. The Modern guys that based their "system" off of competition out of Big Bear in the 1950's and the Old Timers that based their system off of gunfighting. The Old Timers that I have learned from, learned from guys like Appelgate, Sykes, Fairbairn, Jelly Bryce, Col. Askins, and Bill Jordan. These are guys that have been in numerous gunfights. Let's face it most of these guys would have been put in jail for gunfighting if they were doing now what they did then. These guys know more about gunfighting than almost anyone alive today.....and I am talking about real world "killing" knowledge.

    IMHO to dismiss the teachings of the old timers is a real mistake.

    I see no imperical data that proves that shots to the thoracic cavity is better than shots zippering up the torso from the groin to the neck (including the thoracic cavity.)

    As an antidotical story, I remember being marked down in my Modern Techniques course for shots dead center in the neck....dead center in the neck......mark down as a peripheral hit! Where is the reality of this. That shot right there is a fight ender, but since it was not in the thoracic cavity it was treated as a miss. WTFIUWT???!!!

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