Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder

This is a discussion on Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets I have learned from both camps. The Modern guys that based their "system" off of competition out of Big Bear in ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    I have learned from both camps. The Modern guys that based their "system" off of competition out of Big Bear in the 1950's and the Old Timers that based their system off of gunfighting. The Old Timers that I have learned from, learned from guys like Appelgate, Sykes, Fairbairn, Jelly Bryce, Col. Askins, and Bill Jordan. These are guys that have been in numerous gunfights. Let's face it most of these guys would have been put in jail for gunfighting if they were doing now what they did then. These guys know more about gunfighting than almost anyone alive today.....and I am talking about real world "killing" knowledge.

    IMHO to dismiss the teachings of the old timers is a real mistake.

    :
    AMEN and amen! The reason I haven't really posted much in this thread is because pretty much anything I'd have to say has been said and I don't want anyone to feel that I'm just repeating what someone else said. I had to pipe in here though because I believe what you have said here is absolutely true and correct.

    PS Hey Roger! Hows the vids coming along? By the way I really appreciate the "Training and Physical Limitations" article on your site!
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    I'll ask you the same question why are you standing around out in the open and not moving to cover or to a position of advantage?
    I don't want to speak for Randy, but why are you assuming he isn't moving?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    We are talking about moving around with the gun in a safe direction aren't we? If you have unknowns within close proximately and want to get around them the sul position is ripe pickens for a grab.
    One variant of sul is to place the off hand in front of the weapon rather than behind it. This may add a little bit of time to the process of going from sul to full extension, but it helps conceal the gun and gives two hands on the weapon in the event of an attempted grab. With an open front cover garment you can even hold that in front of the gun with your off hand if you want to be even more subtle. This is just something Gabe showed in class, but haven't played with around much. It seems like it would addresses some of these concerns, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    The gun is placed behind your leg so your potential attacker does not see it and we did this a lot during traffic stops and while clearing areas in public places without causing undue alarm.
    This is something that got brought up here a couple months ago as a method for answering the door. That got me wondering about how fast shooting from that position was compared to shooting from the holster (since blading the body puts a gun in the holster out of sight just as well as hiding it behind your leg). It seems to me that if you start with your hand on the gun in the holster, it might actually be faster than starting with the gun hidden behind your leg.

    The natural way to bring the gun into action from behind the leg would be to keep the arm stiff and bring it around the leg and up until it reaches eye level. Unlike the drawstroke, there's not really a way to short circuit this and start shooting early because the gun doesn't bear on the assailant until the last minute. Drawing from the holster, we try very hard to get the gun pointed at the BG as soon as possible so we can shoot early if necessary. Plus there's the fact that we tend to practice drawing from the holster a lot, compared to bringing up the gun from behind the leg. It seems like coming from the holster may actually be faster if you can start with the hand on the gun, but I haven't actually got any empirical data on it (ought to try some stuff with a shot timer and find out).

    One caveat is that I'm coming at this from a pure CCW perspective (open topped kydex holster), wereas you seem to be coming at it a bit more from the police point of view (retention holster). This difference probably has an effect on draw speed, particularly since I'm assuming starting with the cover garment cleared, which is the main thing slowing down a CCWer.

  4. #33
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    No one said you had to stop moving to use sul and I'm not sure where that came from. One of the many inherent problems of trying to express ideas fully with only the written word. Not my forte, by the way.

    As far as the names of techniques and court go, we were taught to be very careful what you call something, especially in what you train to others. Maybe it is just erring on the side of caution, but it seems to be prudent. Saying you "fired to stop the threat" as compared to saying you performed a "double" or "triple tap", for example. One has the potential to "scare" the jury and misrepresent your position and the other does not. Not to change topic, but it is very much like the "quick kill" that you guys discuss so often. While I am mildly interested in how you present the techniques (as compared to the originator of them), there's no way I am going to have something in my permanent training record called "quick kill". It might never be an issue from a legal standpoint, but I am not going to place myself in a position where I would have to test it for myself or someone I have trained. Unnecessary risk, IMO.

    Sul offers good retention. Your thumb (the weakest part of the hand) is protected (pressed against your chest) and the gun is in your center where you are the strongest. I don't see "retention" as being a detriment to the sul position at all. You also have your elbows in a position primed to deliver a strike should someone get close. If the situation dictates such, your support hand can certainly be removed from under the handgun to do whatever is required. What we stress is to get the support hand on the chest (if possible) before shooting with one hand. Yes, there are techniques for "driving forward" with the support arm and shooting under it. From purely a "fighting" standpoint, moving your opponent backwards puts you at an advantage. However, we are back to the very real possibility of shooting one's self in the arm again.

    In your sims exercise, is one person drawing when the other makes a move (action vs. reaction time involved) or are they both shooting from a common start signal? A common start signal removes the action / reaction element and makes a fair test from a "time" and "most number of shots in time" perspective, however it also makes the test unrealistic. When someone is pointing a gun at you from contact distance the action vs. reaction is very much a real part of your situation. Also, as discussed earlier, trying to draw and shoot under these circumstances isn't necessarily your best option.

    At the 3 yard range (contact distance to just beyond) we are drawing to an indexed position at the pec. Does EU/ED get the first shot off quicker? Possibly, since you aren't moving the gun as far. The indexed position will put more hits in HCOM quicker though and which area, when hit, is more likely to cause a faster incapacitation or cessation of the attack; shots to the belly or shots the upper chest?

    Randy

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    Wow! I never thought this article would spark so much interest.

    I also think everyone makes very good points. This is why I tell my students to get training from as many "Good' Instructors as they can as I am sure all who have posted here are good. In this way a non LEO can learn many different methods and use what works for them.

    But just remember my article is titled: Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder. As I too am a LE Instructor my intent was to teach a non LEO how close an actual gunfight could be.

    So let me add my $0.02

    1. I do teach the zipper method but only in Advanced Handgun class.
    I learned this at (FLETC)
    2. I teach position Sul but only when good guys are around. When we are looking for or know that the BG is in the area we should be in a position to fight low ready / retention position.
    3. I use the Tueller Drill to teach what can happen in a gunfight at close range (21 foot rule) and I use Sims so that they can see and feel it.
    4. I also teach movement but movement off the x and movement to cover are different.
    5. I teach the difference between cover and concealment.
    6. I also teach the scan to help break tunnel vision and look for BG's.
    7. I teach shoot to stop the threat, shoot to cover, only stop shooting when the threat stops, then you can worry about everything else.
    8. the key is to prevail in a GUNFIGHT. nothing else is as important until you have done this.
    9. don't shoot good guys using Sul or no Sul call it what you like don't point your handgun at a good guy.
    10. Train, Train, Train, Train because in a gunfight you will not rise to the occasion you will default to your level of training.

    Tom
    http://www.perronitactical.com

  6. #35
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    If you are making statements of what skill set you used to defend yourself or which skills sets you strung together on the stand, instead of strictly why you acted in the manner you did which culminated in a SD shooting, you didn't hire the right atty nor would I consider you testifying intelligently.

    The only way some jury member is going to hear the "what" technique you used for skills sets is if you are being a fool on the stand. You defend what you did, not how you did it.

    An uncle I used to work for in the PI business once gave me some very sage advice:

    "Big fish get to be big fish by keeping their mouth shut"

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; June 8th, 2007 at 10:17 AM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  7. #36
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    IMHO to dismiss the teachings of the old timers is a real mistake.
    Dismissing ideas or teachings just because they are old is a mistake. Continuing to teach ideas just because the "old timers did it that way" or ideas that aren't periodically reviewed and still found to be "true" is equally a mistake.

    Eyewitness reports are probably the single most unreliable source for information you could ever have. You guys in the LE profession know what I am talking about. Interview ten people and you get ten different stories. If you get two stories that are identical, you know these people discussed with each other what they were going to say.

    Ask just about any hunter which bullet works the best and you'll get some story about how a particular type or brand of bullet knocked the deer ten feet through the woods or blew him off his feet and spun him over like a cartwheel. Seriously. They believe this stuff.

    The ancient Chinese people ascribed things which they could not explain to chi. Some still do. A very old people with very old teachings. A guy gets really sick and all the herbs, tea, and acupuncture applied do no good. The conclusion is he has bad chi. Should these teachings be dismissed?

    I could go on and on here with examples - the point I am trying to make is we don't have a lot of hard facts on what the "gunfighters" of the past really did or what happened to the person who was shot during their shootings. How many of these same "gunfighters" soiled their drawers the first time someone was shooting back at them? I'll bet we won't find that data either.

    Brownie - I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that all of your training records will be brought into court. If your training is properly documented, and it should be, there is a record of what you taught your guys. When one of your guys is involved in a shooting, all of the department's records are available to the court. As the instructor for the guy who was involved in the shooting, your training history and instructor credentials will be brought into question. What you were taught and what you taught your guys will be brought out.

    Randy

  8. #37
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    but keep in mind that all of your training records will be brought into court.

    Where LE is concerned, absolutely as records are known to exist where academy training [ as well as any outside that area ] would bee known so challenged looking for an opening by the opposition.

    Where the average ccw carrier is concerned, the vast majority have no formal training history and it's less likely to be asked to begin with.

    If it were to be asked, and it might, the courses name is Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems, and the skills sets imparted are varied and quite diverse from many areas of history. It would then have to be established what skills came into play in that particular case [ if any ].

    The name of any one particular skill within the training regimen that may have been used would not be relevant to whether you were justified in using deadly force, and thats where an atty would step up and why you want to let your atty speak for you and not take the stand [ as is your right and rightfully prudent in most cases ].

    My responsibility is to have skills to survive, it's the attys responsibility to handle the aftermath in court if it goes there.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; June 8th, 2007 at 12:38 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  9. #38
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Post #16 View Post
    Pointing the handgun at the ground is the "safest" direction available for just about any situation you will be in on the street - keeping in mind there is no "downrange" or "safe" direction in that environment. Without sul or a similar technique, you are pointing your gun at the other people who may be present when you turn to check 360 or move out of the area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    Since I responded to the sul position comment in my previous post (while you were typing), I'll answer here too.

    Square range training teaches/reinforces bad habits (or more precisely, techniques that do not work well on the street) - and I know you know that. [;)]

    Sul (or safety circle) is a solution to keep your handgun (or long gun) pointed in the "safest" direction available.

    Take the Modesto shooting for example. Long story short, the officer had made entry on a search warrant. He was armed with a Benelli Shotgun loaded with slug rounds. At one point, someone ordered 11 year old Alberto Sepulveda to the floor. Sepulveda ended up lying down at the doorway into a bedroom from the common hallway.

    The officer stepped over Sepulveda to get out of the way of other officers. As he did so, his shotgun was pointed down at Sepulveda and it discharged. The officer later testified that the handle of the fixed blade knife on his tactical vest got into the trigger guard and activated the trigger. The slug killed the kid. This led to an obvious law suit as well as involvement by the State Attorney General and eventually the State Legislature.

    It could have all been prevented if the officer had been pointing his
    shotgun in the safest direction possible. This is just one example of why we talk about and train to keep the weapon pointed in the safest direction possible instead of covering someone who doesn't need to be shot.

    Randy

    I'm a little confused on this.

    Did I miss understand your posts, or are you advocating that muzzle down is the safest direction?

    At first you state that the safest direction possible is toward the ground, then "...It could have all been prevented if the officer had been pointing his shotgun in the safest direction possible. "

    But it seems to me that pointing the weapon in the "safest direction possible" is what resulted in the shooting.

    Your story says that the shooting occurred while the officer was stepping OVER the victim who was laying on the ground. So apparently he did have his weapon pointed in what you're referring to the "safest direction possible"

    The safest direction possible is not always down. It's where the round won't kill an unintended victim.

    I'm not an instructor, I don't even have that much training, but I've done some house to house training and have some (not a lot but some) BTDT experiences. And I don't think that muzzle down is a good option for a LONG GUN, at least by a Military stand point.

    I'm an advocate of the low ready myself, but that's just my opinion based mainly on military training.

    The main reason this particular shooting occurred is due to the fact that the officer had a knife attached to his vest, which IMHO is never a good thing, in extreme hand to hand combat, that knife is just as accessible to your opponent as it is to to the guy who's carrying on his vest.

    I personally don't believe in one "safest direction possible" on the safest direction possible at the time.

    Teaching a strict muzzle down method, doesn't leave much room for latitude of improvisation when needed, muzzle awareness needs to be flexible, just for these situations where a suspect is on the floor.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Dismissing ideas or teachings just because they are old is a mistake. Continuing to teach ideas just because the "old timers did it that way" or ideas that aren't periodically reviewed and still found to be "true" is equally a mistake.
    You may want to do some research on the old timers. Nearly everything that is written in this thread by Mr. Peronni, yourself, 7677, and myself was all common knowledge back in the early 1900's.

    Right now there is a "rediscovery" of the teachings of the old timers. We (the guys that have been discussing this here) are using the same concepts that the old timers used.....and I bet they were not new to them either. As we move past the competition based Modern Techniques, we are rediscovering what the gunfighters in the early 1900's were doing and using.

    Here are a few examples of how much we are following the old timers. Here are some observations made by Fairbairn and Sykes through out twelve and a half years in Shanghai in the 1930's. This is information taken from 666 gunfights (pistols.) That is one police force in one city in which 42 officers were killed along with 260 crimminals, 100 officers were wounded along with 193 crimminals. These are facts and well established history. I do not believe that "chi" had anything to do with these facts and results.

    Compare these observations to what we teach in our respective course.

    "In the great majority of shooting affrays the distance at which firing takes place is not more than four yards. Very frequently it is considerably less. Often the only warning of what is about to take place is a suspicious movement of an opponents hand. Again, your opponent is quite likely to be on the move. It may happen, too, that you have been running to overtake him." page 3 of STL.
    "If you have to fire, your instinct will be to do so as quickly as possible, and you will probably do it with a bent arm, possibly even from the level of the hip. The whole affair may take place in bad light or none at all, and that is precisely the moment the policemen, at any rate, is most likely to meet trouble, since darknessfavours the activities of the crimminal." page 4 STL
    Here we have a set of circumstances which in every respect are absolutely different from those encountered in target shooting. Do they not call for absolutely different methods of training? page 4 of STL
    "To answer this question we must consider the essential points which emerge from our analysis. They appear to be three in number, and we should set them out in the following order:
    1. Extreme speed, both in drawing and firing.
    2.Instinctive, as opposed to deliberate aim.
    3. Practice under circumstances which approximateas nearly as possible to actual fighting conditions."page 5 of STL
    "We have made no mention yet of an aspect of this matter which we have observed time and time in the course of years. A hit in the abdomin regional most invariably causes a man to drop anything that he has in his hands and clutch his stomach convulsively. We may add that such a hit is almost always has fatal results, and is an excellent reason for such equipment as effective bullet proof vest, at least for the use of police." page 78 of STL
    I listen to the old timers because of the insurmountable amount of experience that they have to pass on. There is no instructor alive today that can compare to the experience of Shanghai, WWII, 1920 and 1930 Oklahoma and Boarder Patrols.

    Experience trumps all in reguards to effective gunfighting skills....not sure about chi though.

    What is old is new again. We are in a period where many of us are integrating the old with the new.

    Great time to be a student!
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; June 9th, 2007 at 12:08 AM.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    PS Hey Roger! Hows the vids coming along? By the way I really appreciate the "Training and Physical Limitations" article on your site!
    My friend keeps talking about the video....but has yet to follow through. I may just have to take it on myself.

    I am glad that you liked that article. I am looking to add a "physical limitations" course to my more advanced dynamic movement and night fighting courses. I think that is a missing link in firearms training.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    My friend keeps talking about the video....but has yet to follow through. I may just have to take it on myself.

    I am glad that you liked that article. I am looking to add a "physical limitations" course to my more advanced dynamic movement and night fighting courses. I think that is a missing link in firearms training.
    Please let me know if you guys get the vids up. The rough drafts were good! I had some profesional training 10 years ago(I think I may have said 8 years in another post but it's 10). The training I received was based alot on the "old timers" skills. I have practiced what I learned on my own and with friends, (we had been, up till fairly recently doing alot of FOF with air soft). I really could use a refresher course. If and when you get the course for "physical limitations" please let me know. Maybe I can offer assistance as a guinea pig.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Wow! I never thought this article would spark so much interest.

    I also think everyone makes very good points. This is why I tell my students to get training from as many "Good' Instructors as they can as I am sure all who have posted here are good. In this way a non LEO can learn many different methods and use what works for them.

    But just remember my article is titled: Close Quarters Battle for the Concealed Handgun Permit Holder. As I too am a LE Instructor my intent was to teach a non LEO how close an actual gunfight could be.

    So let me add my $0.02

    1. I do teach the zipper method but only in Advanced Handgun class.
    I learned this at (FLETC)
    2. I teach position Sul but only when good guys are around. When we are looking for or know that the BG is in the area we should be in a position to fight low ready / retention position.
    3. I use the Tueller Drill to teach what can happen in a gunfight at close range (21 foot rule) and I use Sims so that they can see and feel it.
    4. I also teach movement but movement off the x and movement to cover are different.
    5. I teach the difference between cover and concealment.
    6. I also teach the scan to help break tunnel vision and look for BG's.
    7. I teach shoot to stop the threat, shoot to cover, only stop shooting when the threat stops, then you can worry about everything else.
    8. the key is to prevail in a GUNFIGHT. nothing else is as important until you have done this.
    9. don't shoot good guys using Sul or no Sul call it what you like don't point your handgun at a good guy.
    10. Train, Train, Train, Train because in a gunfight you will not rise to the occasion you will default to your level of training.

    Tom
    http://www.perronitactical.com
    Tom,
    It looks like an excellent class me, but do you incorporate any H2H skills for extreme close quarters drills?

    With movement drills, do you teach your students to start moving and draw their weapons and shoot? I teach to get the body in motion first and once the foot starts to move the hand starts for the gun. This was something that class in the 727 made clear to me. If you get to take that class, I recommend it because they covered a lot of CQB shooting, gun grappling, and H2H techniques.

  14. #43
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    When discussing movement, I like to point out that it takes several forms. There are basically six situations.

    1. Your target is moving, but you are not.
    2. Would be if you are moving, but your target is not.
    3. Would be that of both you and your target moving.
    4. It gets really interesting when you encounter lateral (or diagonal) movement.
    5. Advancing toward your target may be a good tactical maneuver.
    6. Moving away, however, can be problematic. Unless you are necessarily
    moving to available cover.

    I always teach once the foot moves you start the 5 points to the draw. I also teach the zipper method of shooting, close retention shooting and point shooting as well as aimed fire. No matter how you do it, however, it is in your best interests to make practicing shooting with movement happen. You must train for the fight. The root word of “Gunfight” is fight which means it will be dynamic.

    We also in PTTA Advanced Handgun I & II teach some close quarters fighting and retention techniques. Emphasizing the use of the elbows at that distance for striking and retention of the handgun.

    However please realize that “Combat Mindset” plays a key role here.

    Tom
    http://www.perronitactical.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Really good posts, one and all.

    The reality of the "most likely" fight is something that everyone should look at. My course is based on the exact same concepts that have been preached here. I do things slightly differently than DCJS and Randy....and more like 7677. But the context of the fight is very much the same.

    I am also very big on one handed shooting.

    My course is built around the "see what you need to see" concept of the integration of sighted fire and point shooting along with dynamic movement.

    Funny the way things have changed over the last six or seven years.
    What exactly had changed?
    And I don't mean to seem stupid, but what is OODA? I know I've heard that term in training, but for the life of me, I just can't remember what it means exactly?
    TSgt. Lickey

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    Quote Originally Posted by A1C Lickey View Post
    And I don't mean to seem stupid, but what is OODA? I know I've heard that term in training, but for the life of me, I just can't remember what it means exactly?
    OODA is the Observe Orient Decide Act loop, also known as the Boyd Cycle. Semperfi.45 gave an excellent summary of the OODA loop and it's applicability to gunfighting here.

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