I may have to recant something I said about switching guns...

This is a discussion on I may have to recant something I said about switching guns... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I mentioned in a thread, that I didn't have problems transitioning from a Glock grip angle to a '1911' grip angle. Recently, I have found ...

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Thread: I may have to recant something I said about switching guns...

  1. #1
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    I may have to recant something I said about switching guns...

    I mentioned in a thread, that I didn't have problems transitioning from a Glock grip angle to a '1911' grip angle.

    Recently, I have found some subtleties that for some odd reason I hadn't noticed before. I've been playing with a G-19 with a Optima 2000 red dot sight. The Optima is no longer available but Trijicon offers an almost exact model of it called the Trijicon Red Dot. It is small enough to be carried concealed and I have done so a lot recently.

    Anyway, I have trained with a 92FS and the PX4 a lot lately and these two guns have the same grip angle. When I transisitoned to the G-19 with the red dot, I experienced the initial 'high hold' but adjusted on the range and did fine. However, in repeated, random dry fire draws, I found that I continually indexed high. The reason is simple and clear - subconscious muscle memory. I have trained so long on the 92FS and PX4 (and M&P) that I reflexively go to the 92 index position.

    Finding that to be more than interesting, I tried a couple of other guns I thought had the same grip angle as the 92. Even very slight differences showed up as a high index.

    Here's why this is important to me. All else being equal, I would carry a Glock for many reasons. But all things aren't equal. I now realize that if I carry a Glock and train with it, I will eventually adjust my reflex index to the Glock grip angle. Well, there's nothing wrong with that, in fact that's good that we can adjust, but the bad thing is, it means that any other gun I carry (other than another Glock) is gonna shoot low.

    When does that matter? It matters when speed and accuracy from a draw is an issue. I have no problem sighting a gun accurately. But when I am drawing for maximum speed AND accuracy, I rely heavily on muscle memory to position the gun and use a flash sight pic for confirmation. My shot breaks just as soon as I reach extension. So subconscious muscle memory dominates the gun's indexing allowing only small visual adjustments.

    So, I'm gonna have to recant the statements I made about 'ease' of transition - it is not easy for me to transition from one grip angle to another.

    Now, I have to decide if I want to carry a Glock and adapt to it or continue to carry non-Glocks that I'm already adapted to.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Side Not the J Point is the old Tasco optima with a few upgrades

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    One reason I now religiously stick to just one all the time possible and practicable, which means 99.5% at least of the time - grip partly but also manual of arms.

    I want all I feel and use on the platform to be as familiar as my ugly face
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Right on P95! Well, except for the ugly face part.
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    Member Array Whyveear's Avatar
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    That is the single biggest reason why I will never buy a Glock. I like to shoot too many other guns.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    II've been playing with a G-19 with a Optima 2000 red dot sight. The Optima is no longer available but Trijicon offers an almost exact model of it called the Trijicon Red Dot. It is small enough to be carried concealed and I have done so a lot recently.
    Nice combo, isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Nice combo, isn't it?
    You said it! Like one guy said, "It's almost like cheating."
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    Tangle - I have same issue. I carry Glocks and also non-glocks (H&K P2K and BerettaPX4)

    I keep agonizing over a decision: Should I just trashcan the others and go exclusively w/ the Glock or trashcan the Glocks and go exclusively with others. I still haven't made up my mind yet.

    As an aside, what trigger action do you have on your PX4?

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    Serves you right Tangle for "abandoning" your Beretta.

    Nyah, nyah!

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    Yep, exactly why I do not own a Glock. If I need to point shoot I will be pointing off with a Glock compared to my other pistols. I decided a while back it was enough of any issue for me to find similar grip angles in my carry guns.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    I feel that if you regularly practice with both, you point of aim will be automatic to what you pick up. I dont own a Glock, but i do own a 1911. However my friend owns both. When we spent the day shooting, he and I both can pick up one or the other and point shoot without problems. I will add that I dont care for the grip of the Glock either but after practicing with it, it is natural even if I dont like it. I believe that the feel of the grip tells what you have in your hand and your POA will be second nature.
    Just like driving a car. YES with a car that is new to you, it feels different but after a short time you adjust. Lets say you drive a Dodge PU and your sig. other drives a Chevy car. If you drive them both on a regular basis, neither of them feel different because you automaticly adjust to what you are drivning.
    Yes it is kind of a weak comparison, but you get my point.
    Practice with both equally and it will become second nature.
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    Tangle - I have same issue. I carry Glocks and also non-glocks (H&K P2K and BerettaPX4)

    I keep agonizing over a decision: Should I just trashcan the others and go exclusively w/ the Glock or trashcan the Glocks and go exclusively with others. I still haven't made up my mind yet.

    As an aside, what trigger action do you have on your PX4?
    sojourner,

    You summed up exactly where I am. It is pretty much as you say, trash all others and go with Glock - a good choice, or forget Glock and go with all others - also a good choice.

    My PX4 has the DA/SA trigger.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    Quote Originally Posted by srfl View Post
    Serves you right Tangle for "abandoning" your Beretta.

    Nyah, nyah!

    I stand ashamed. Actually, I'm headed to the range in about 15 minutes and guess what I'm takin'? My 92FS DAO. The 92 is just a sweet handling, accurate gun. The only reason I don't carry it above all others is it's just a tad bit long. But, I'm leaning strongly toward it again. A 92 really works for me shooting wise.

    I'm gonna do some timed draw and fires with the 92 (DAO) and compare it to the G-19 times I did the other day. With a Optima red dot sight on the G-19, I was averaging 1.75 seconds draw and fire on essentially a torso size dinger at 75 yards. I will be disappointed if I can't beat that average with my 92FS with iron sights.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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    Quote Originally Posted by target1911 View Post
    I feel that if you regularly practice with both, you point of aim will be automatic to what you pick up. I dont own a Glock, but i do own a 1911. However my friend owns both. When we spent the day shooting, he and I both can pick up one or the other and point shoot without problems. I will add that I dont care for the grip of the Glock either but after practicing with it, it is natural even if I dont like it. I believe that the feel of the grip tells what you have in your hand and your POA will be second nature.
    Just like driving a car. YES with a car that is new to you, it feels different but after a short time you adjust. Lets say you drive a Dodge PU and your sig. other drives a Chevy car. If you drive them both on a regular basis, neither of them feel different because you automaticly adjust to what you are drivning.
    Yes it is kind of a weak comparison, but you get my point.
    Practice with both equally and it will become second nature.
    I agree 100% with what you say. However there is a big difference in what I'm doing and what you described. I can shoot one gun just about as well as any other. But when drawing a gun and firing at speed, the differences are ingrained muscle memory from hundreds of reps, and speed. Those 'memories' orient the hand/arm position to the one consistently and repeatedly practiced. If I switch to a gun with a different grip angle, AND draw at speed, my 'memory' still orients my hands/arms to the practiced position. The sight influence is just not enough to correct fast enough.

    At speed, muscle memory becomes the dominate alignment mechanism, influenced ever so subtly by a subconscious flash sight picture. I can clearly see the difference even at slower speeds because my muscle memory is so ingrained. So what becomes an advantage, muscle memory, with one gun, becomes a disadvantage with a gun with a different grip angle.

    I once watched a champion IDPA shooter try his best to transition to a Glock for about three days - he finally gave up. It's that hard.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Yep, exactly why I do not own a Glock. If I need to point shoot I will be pointing off with a Glock compared to my other pistols. I decided a while back it was enough of an issue for me to find similar grip angles in my carry guns.
    Yep, after my latest experience, I have to agree. As you imply, the problem is not with different guns per se, but with the grip angles. I have discovered that even the 'same' grip angles aren't always the same.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

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