Ok Instructors - here is a question for you.

This is a discussion on Ok Instructors - here is a question for you. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am a wheelchair user (lifelong, degenerative orthopedic disability) I have been carrying and shooting for years but most of the courses and tactical training ...

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Thread: Ok Instructors - here is a question for you.

  1. #1
    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    Ok Instructors - here is a question for you.

    I am a wheelchair user (lifelong, degenerative orthopedic disability)

    I have been carrying and shooting for years but most of the courses and tactical training that I have found was not really much help to me. Most were heavy on moving to cover, resisting the BG and other "physical" actions.

    Being on wheels and needing my hands to power any movement that I make puts me at a disadvantage. Once I stop my chair and unholster I am "defending in place". If I need to change positions quickly I will need both hands to push the chair. In trying to work on tactics with friends and co-workers, the first thing they do is flip me over in my chair...now I'm a turtle... ...armed but clearly compromised.

    I have good upper body strength, have a reasonably commanding presence with my posture, demeanor and voice control and I have a fair amount of common sense.

    Any thoughts on tactics from any of you, experts or not, that might help ?

    Glock 27 in either an IWB or a safepacker...J-Frame BUG in either my pocket or the front storage pouch on my chair. (left handed too)

    Thanks,

    RandyW

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  3. #2
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    Array Ben Hennessy's Avatar
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    This is a real problem and one I would of not thought of. An instructor geared in this area would be very valuable. Wedoada Have you worked on different ideas on how to protect yourself in your chair? If they work maybe you could work with an instructor in teacing others.

  4. #3
    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    I agree Ben.

    An instructor that offered a course specifically designed to work with people with physical disabilities would have that market cornered as there is NOTHING like it out there now that I can find.

    It would take a special instructor because each PWD has different abilities and limitations so it would almost be a custom course but there are over 54 million PWD in the USA, many of whom are gun owners and carry.

    I am not a firearms or defensive tactics instuctor but I am very familair with various disabilities and disability cultures. I continually work to find new tactics that work for me, thus the original post, and would love the opportunity to work with someone to develop something.

    CCW and Tactics for:

    Wheelchair users
    Crutch users
    People with Low Vision
    People of Limited Stature
    People with Limited Upper Body or Hand Strength
    People who are Deaf or Hard of Hearing (typical course but with an ASL Interpreter)


    I know many PWD that hunt, fish, shoot, etc. We don't want to be "victims" and are prepared to defend ourselves and our families given the right training and tools.

    RandyW

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    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    Due to our unfortunate position. Physically resisting at attack is not really an option. I choose to carry on my person instead of the chair as unless things go our way we WILL be separated from the chair. Practice shooting from your back, side, prone, tipped over. Tactical training is nothing more than going over the "What Ifs" before it happens. Find an old couch, take it out to the range if they will let you and practice holding yourself up over the back and fireing with the other hand. A 6x6 square of carpet will help with padding/prone. Even if you cant reholster to move you can "stuff" it behind your back and in front of the back of your chair. We have an advantage as noone thinks the crippled kid had a gun. That may buy us some time, but the key to our survival is situational awareness. We must be more vigilant in watching out for predators as we are prime prey.
    (This prey has claws and teeth though) It's easy to mount what else you need to the frame. An ASP with a kydex holster mounts nicely under most seat supports. I usually keep a small knife in my shirt pocket as well.

    I guess to sum it up, Be Prepaired, and Be Prepaired to fight back hard enough, soon enough.
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  6. #5
    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    Thanks FknRa,

    Thats exactly what I do now. Try to think ahead and practice from many awkward positions. I agree that our advantage is "looking helpless" to many people when in fact we are underestimated in most cases.

    I carry on my person as well and only use my front pouch of the chair as a last resort. I am not a big fan of putting my weapon down to move once I engage. For me I just think that if the threat is real enough to unholster then I just need to commit and defend in place. i try to pick the right spot to engage from in the first place to eliminate the need to move later.

    I learned from watching all those horror movies...the guy in the wheelchair always gets it first ! LOL -- Kidding....

    RandyW

    *** by the way...love the wide tires.
    Last edited by wedoada; June 26th, 2007 at 02:18 PM. Reason: old age

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedoada View Post
    Thanks FknRa,


    I learned from watching all those horror movies...the guy in the wheelchair always gets it first ! LOL -- Kidding....

    RandyW

    *** by the way...love the wide tires.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedoada View Post
    An instructor that offered a course specifically designed to work with people with physical disabilities would have that market cornered as there is NOTHING like it out there now that I can find.
    Suarez International offers a course called Bad Backs, Old Eyes & Oversized. It may not be exactly what you're looking for as far as a wheelchair is concerned, but it shows that someone is at least thinking about self-defense tactics for the less physically able.

    Regular classes may be an option, if the instructor is willing to work with you. During the force-on-force class I took, Gabe mentioned that he had a guy in a wheelchair go through the class. From the description, the fellow only had full use of one of his arms, but he still managed to do well in the class (evidently a motorized wheelchair works great for getting off the X fast, even though the guy couldn't drive the chair and shoot at the same time).

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    Member Array PcMakr's Avatar
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    wedoada,

    Love your avatar. I am not in a wheelchair and hope I never get there. Do have a degenerative disease, myasthenia gravis, that affects my neuromuscular system. Not too much I can't do, just not for long; no stamina and reflexes are slower. Once in awhile I get into a pity party, and then I see somone in a chair or worse and the Good Lord gives me an attirude adjustment. It's all about attitude.

    Never thought about problems that CCW would present to those that are in wheelchairs. I could have misconceptions about some of the guys in SPEC OPS, but they are supposed to be innovative and I would think that some of those guys would be good at coming up with some options that would work for you.

    I will certainly mention it to a couple of instructors I know personally, and maybe they can come up with some type of training program for the guys in my area. Thanks for the heads up on the need for this type of training. Good luck on finding what you are looking for and God bless.

  10. #9
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedoada View Post
    Thanks FknRa,

    *** by the way...love the wide tires.
    snow + skinny hospital tires = Sliding down the ramp and dumping it at the bottom.

    >18" of snow + skinny hospital tires = screwed
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

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    Last class in Philly, we discussed a class with various disabilities in the future geared toward wheelchair use as well as one or both crutches.

    It's in the works right now. I can tell you that learning to shoot from the CAR system as well as shooting from Iso/Mod Iso, and moving into and out of Weaver arms positions will be a big part of this training due to the restrictions on upper body and movement.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; June 26th, 2007 at 05:12 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    One thing I would recommend is learn to shoot equally well both right and left handed. Self defense is up close and personal standing or sitting. Situational awareness should help you stay out of those dangerous places but if a guy jumps out of the shadows at me or you they are on us in a flash. Learn the best place to holster your gun(s) tactically for use in a wheelchair. You may need to carry more than one for this reason. I would practice a quick roll back one handed in either direction depending on hand used, and drawing with the other hand. I would also carry some type of edged weapon. Bad guys are going to think you are even more helpless then the average victim. Prove them wrong by being prepared to go on the offense. They won't expect that. Be particularly wary of what is behind you, don't let someone sneak up on you from behind. Can a mirror be mounted in some way so you don't look ridiculous to help you see what is approaching from the rear? Practice quick turn around and draw from both directions.

    Hope this is of some value.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Member Array GotSig?'s Avatar
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    What about a power chair? Something with the control on your weakside, so you can move the chair and fire with your strongside hand? Maybe something with a little punch, ive seen some of those chairs flying around walmart, they clip along at a pretty good speed.
    كافر(Infidel)
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146
    German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

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    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    Ok...so many people to reply to....

    Blackeagle - I stand corrected, nice to see someone is thinking about the issue. I just wish they were closer.

    PcMaKr - Thanks for your thoughts. Being in the chair isn't so bad...my disability is a birth defect so it is all i've ever known. God Bless.

    AzQkr - That sounds interesting. For me it is not the shooting skills themselves that is in question but I know for many it is. I am looking for more tactical pointers but please keep me posted so that I can pass the info on to others.

    havegunjoe - I have two kids (9 & 2.5) so quick starts, fast turns and other stunt show moves are no problem. As someone suggested I do have "other tools" mounted on the chair and usually carry a pocket clip type knife...cheap variety I'm ashamed to say.

    GotSig? - I use a manual chair -- around $3000 to $5000 for a quality chair that you can sit for 10 to 12 hours in a day. Power chairs are MUCH more expensive. I only qualify for insurance help with a new chair every 4 years and can't just request a powerchair even if I wanted to get one, it needs to be prescribed. Most People with Disabilities also don't want to move to a power chair until they really need to...its an independence thing. *wink*

    I honestly wish to thank everyone for the welcome and the great thoughts. I am also serious about being willing to help any instructors out there that may have a student with a disability or want to design some sort of course specifically for PWD.

    RandyW

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedoada View Post
    Blackeagle - I stand corrected, nice to see someone is thinking about the issue. I just wish they were closer.
    You're in New Hamshire, right? Bangor, Maine isn't close enough?

  16. #15
    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    Bangor, ME. ??

    Hmmm...I guess I followed the wrong link. I thought it said somewhere in Arizona. I'll look again.

    Bangor isn't bad...4.5 hours or so

    Thanks.

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