Move and shoot

This is a discussion on Move and shoot within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just curious, how many people practice moving and shooting when at the firing range? The patrol has picked up on this for the last couple ...

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Thread: Move and shoot

  1. #1
    New Member Array Shidoshi's Avatar
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    Move and shoot

    Just curious, how many people practice moving and shooting when at the firing range? The patrol has picked up on this for the last couple of years and it has revolutionized the way we think about things. A couple of the most important tips I have picked up is:

    1. Only move as fast as you can accurately shoot. You will never out run a bullet no matter how fast you move. The best way to prevent someone from firing at you is to hit them

    2. Use a good shooting posture. Crouching will decrease your accuracy and you really aren't doing that much to reduce your size. Again, referring to tip #1, anything you can do to increase your ability to hit your target is best.

    3. Use natural point of aim. Don't try to use the sights or point fire on the target. Simply use natural bone alignment and point to your target and follow through with a nice trigger pull.

    Any other thoughts or tips?
    Shidoshi E. Scott Damron
    www.impactninjutsu.com

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    We must understand that the situation should dictate the actions. We need to be able to find the balance between "to hit and not be hit" dependent on who has the inititive and by how far. "Stand and deliver", controlled movement, and dynamic movement all have their place inside of the fight continuum.

    We must understand the true dynamics of a fight and work these true dynamics in FOF.

    We must understand the physiological response to a life threatening encounter and accept this "caveman brain" reactions and responses and learn to work inside of these reactions and responses. This would include the crouch. Spending hundreds of hours to reprogram an unnatural response when the natural response makes more sense is a waste of time and resources.

    React as you need to react, move as you need to move, see what you need to see, and work the grip and the trigger as you need to for the specific situation that you may encounter.

    Seamlessly integrate your sighted and unsighted fire into one "simply shooting" concept that allows you to get solid combat hits at logical distances from any angle (every position on the face of the clock) from any position (all the way through your one handed and two handed draw stroke) with whatever movement is necessary (learn to move and shoot in all directions) and "Just shoot the b**tard!"

  4. #3
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    Only move as fast as you can accurately shoot.
    Quite agree - and only with practice can this be dertermined.

    Sadly many people use ranges where static is all they are permitted ... I am lucky to have two places where I can often have the place to myself and ..... practice about any method I choose.

    Movement is vital and managing to maintain effective accuracy with that is, needless to say vital. Age does not help re swiftness and ease of movement but still - it must be practiced as much as feasable.
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    When shooting with the team at the LEO range we usually do at least one or two shoot and move exercises each time we are out and sometimes just about all we do will be shoot and move with the subguns, carbines and pistols.

    On our public range, you have to stay in the box if anyone else is at the range at the same time. Obviously if your group is the only one out there, you can move outside the box and do shoot and move drills. But if anyone else shows up to the range, it's back in the box!

    Tuesdays and thursdays in early mornings are good time to get some alone time at our public range. Obviously weekends are out. Always seems to be someone there most of the time.

    We are now presently trying to integrate out county sheriff's swat team with the city PD and end up with a multijurisdictional team so we can have more members a combined budget and more resources so it should be interesting to see how it all works out. Everyone is pretty excited about it. We wanted that for years but had to wait until the city PD got a new and younger chief with more progressive ideas for their dept.
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    Member Array Timothy's Avatar
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    For those that shoot at ranges I recomend an airsoft gun. You can practice all the movement you want right in your home. Not as embarassing either.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    We do lots of moving and shooting at our monthly Polite Society shoots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shidoshi View Post
    1. Only move as fast as you can accurately shoot. You will never out run a bullet no matter how fast you move. The best way to prevent someone from firing at you is to hit them
    I have to disagree with this. The object of moving while shooting isn't to "outrun a bullet", it's to outrun the BG's point of aim. If you want to get out of his sights, you need to explode off the X. The object is not necessarily to achieve the highest possible speed, but very high acceleration. Of course, there is a balance between how fast you can move and how accurate your shooting will be, but this balance shouldn't be tilted towards accurate shooting. Not getting hit is much more important than hitting the BG!
    Last edited by Blackeagle; August 9th, 2007 at 03:32 AM.

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    New Member Array Shidoshi's Avatar
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    I respect your opinion, but I still believe my original statement holds true. I understand you want to move out of the BG point of aim, but its not that hard to lead you either. I would say it would depend on the cover you are heading too. If it is close by, then maybe an explosive, accelerated run is called for. That is if you start from a concealed position. But barring that, the best way to get out from the BG point of aim is to hit him with rounds. From the stats we have gathered, officers are wounded much less when rounds hit the violator when moving from cover to cover. This also holds true when we do our simmunition exercises.
    Shidoshi E. Scott Damron
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shidoshi View Post
    I respect your opinion, but I still believe my original statement holds true. I understand you want to move out of the BG point of aim, but its not that hard to lead you either.
    Actually, it's quite hard to lead on someone moving explosively off the X if the shooter doesn't know they're going to move. I've done this quite a bit in force-on-force drills. When someone does a good job exploding off the X, they can usually get 4-5 rounds on the BG before he gets the first round on them.

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    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shidoshi View Post
    3. Use natural point of aim. Don't try to use the sights or point fire on the target. Simply use natural bone alignment and point to your target and follow through with a nice trigger pull.

    Any other thoughts or tips?
    I disagree with this last piece of advice for most civilian shooters - in a stressful situation under fire, people instinctivly resort to their training, and if you've shot at the range using your pistol's sights then that is what you should stick with in your head come "for real" time. If you train using sights but then try to switch to "natural point of aim" in a self defense shooting, all you're going to end up is mixed up and not making those vital first shots accurate ones.

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    Some people don't have the capability to explode out of a potential kill zone due to physical limitations either.

    If you can move and are agile, by all means, please do keep that in mind. If you can't move with enough "explosive" speed, well, you'll have to stand and deliver then.

    For some, it's just too late in the game to try to accomplish this for a multitude of reasons. Lets not forget those who are infirmed in some manner who need training in skills THEY can use in their world of reality.

    By the end of this year ITFTS will be offering a course that directly deals with skills these people can use to still offer them a way to come out on top of a lethal confrontation using a firearm.

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    New Member Array Shidoshi's Avatar
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    I see where you are coming from blackeagle. Definitely, when it comes to any conflict, there are no absolute rules. I can agree with your statement as long as you are moving from a concealed position and you will not be out in the open too long, however, this is not always the case.

    As far as using natural sight alignment, I absolutely agree that you will revert back to your training. This is why I highly suggest training with natural point of aim above target shooting.
    Shidoshi E. Scott Damron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shidoshi
    As far as using natural sight alignment, I absolutely agree that you will revert back to your training. This is why I highly suggest training with natural point of aim above target shooting.
    I'm going to take this one step further and suggest that we all need to train with strong/weak hand only drills as well. These drills combined will help us to provide a smaller target (side profile as opposed to face on) while laying down accurate "defensive" (suppressive) fire and can be practiced even if you do not have the facilities available to you for training in move and shoot.
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shidoshi View Post
    I see where you are coming from blackeagle. Definitely, when it comes to any conflict, there are no absolute rules. I can agree with your statement as long as you are moving from a concealed position and you will not be out in the open too long, however, this is not always the case.
    Actually, that's not exactly what I had in mind. What I'm mainly talking about is getting of the X (the spot where you're standing and the BG's attention, and potentially bullets, are concentrated). If cover is available I'm going to be moving towards it, but I'm going to be moving even if there isn't any cover within a useful distance.

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    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    Shidoshi,
    If would have seen this post earlier, I would have invited you to a class we put on for a local agency here in Northeast Ohio and I put on the same class for a agency in Central Texas a few weeks before that.

    I have to disagree with you about number 2, as if it isn’t taken too far crouching is a good thing. Since you are into martial arts then you know that most people will lower their base prior to engaging in a fight. However, what is not talked about is lowering of the base enables a person to move dynamically and cuts down on the bounce in the step. By reducing the bounce you can move faster and still hit your target.

    As far as number 3 is concerned, to be able to move and shoot you have to do one of two things: control your speed in order to use your sights or develop your eye/hand coordination to the point where eyes are focused on your bullet hit. This is the premise behind threat focused shooting techniques and allows for dynamic movement and hitting the target. Index only shooting technique is only effective for stationary and straight in shooting techniques.

    When we speak of moving off the “X”, we need to remember the angles of attack and economy of motion. It does no good to explosively move off the X when a simple side step will suffice. Distance and time (the urgency of getting your gun into action) determines your course of action…sighted fire or threat focused and the amount of movement necessary to accomplish the mission.

    The biggest stumbling block with movement is LE’s do not do enough of it and it is not a ingrained response. When people watch me move and shoot they think everything happens simultaneously but the key is to get the feet moving first because the body takes longer to get in motion then it does to draw your firearm. The officer must also move in a direction that maximizes the angle of attack and makes tracking the most difficult and this depends on the circumstance surrounding the incident.

    In closing, movement for the sake of movement is not a good thing as it should be used to get to a position of advantage.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Personally i move and shoot , but i either move or shoot since i can do either better and faster when i dont worry about the other .
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