June 7th, 2005 04:36 AM
I wouldn't throw away the idea of checking out Gabe's courses due to a forum. Every forum has it's share of less experienced practitioners that tend to spout off something stupid. Tangle has a good point when it comes to learning the proven fundamentals, but once they're down pat, it's also good to think outside the box, and have an open mind. I can't elaborate more without repeating the great respones that the others gave.
May the Schwartz be with you
June 8th, 2005 10:43 AM
Gabes newsletter is really an eye opener to attitudes we develop about playing fair and the expectation the bad guy is going to comply. Gabe is really outstanding in my book, he is a street fighter that will keep you alive when the terror starts. He provides a service with his news letter by teaching us what to expect and how to modify your attitudes about fighting to stay alive.
As you slide down the banister of life,
May the splinters never point the wrong way.
NRA Life Member
June 8th, 2005 01:26 PM
He makes a lot of sense, to me. Why do some treat him as a pariah?
June 8th, 2005 04:29 PM
Perhaps because they haven't had the "Aha" experience one gets from taking one of his classes.
Originally Posted by Tom357
There's a reason The Sopranos
is set in New Jersey.
June 8th, 2005 07:07 PM
I think airsoft as a close drill training aid is good. I have done this for a few years now . Sometimes with a few friends. It opens your eyes to how fast you can end up hit and how cover will really help.
June 9th, 2005 01:31 AM
I'd like to start off with that I have never taken any of Gabes classes. That said, I would say that Gabe definately thinks outside the box.
(I'm not a book reviewer so don't blast me! )
But he doesn't start out with radical ideas without a solid foundation. You can get a good start with Tactical Pistol Marksmenship for example. He starts out with equipment selection and practice, especially dry fire practice. He then goes on to safety, reloads, grip and stance, ready positions and finally presentation from the holster. Now, up until this point (the first half of the book) this is standard training, the proper technique.
IMO, Gabe doesn't expect you to start your basic training with moving and shooting and tac reloads. You build upon a foundation. He states in the book "With smoothness comes speed" or words to that effect.
Gabe is always open to new ideas (there aren't many left!) and is known to say "Sometimes a teacher, but always a student".
This isn't an attack on anybody, just things I have discovered through Gabe's forum and personal emails. BTW, Gabe is a strong Christian and his forum is led that way.
Tangle, you have an interesting story of those tennis players. In that analogy I would say that Gabe is a combination of the two. Gabe has learned the correct techniques from a professional (Jeff Cooper) and has moved beyond to incorperate unorthodox techniques.
BTW Tangle, did that one tennis player ever beat the other....you never mentioned it.
Seek safety at the heart of danger.
Live Easy, Die Hard
June 9th, 2005 08:52 AM
Iíll second the recommendation for Tactical Pistol Marksmanship. In my opinion, it is the best intro for new comers. It is also great for everyone else, including experienced shooters. I am actually reading it for the fourth time right now. Itís a great overall review.
Tactical Pistol : Advanced Gunfighting Concepts And Techniques is also good. Itís older and some of Gabeís views have changed. For example he advocates speed rock in Tactical Pistol, but no longer does in Tactical Pistol Marksmanship (I agree with his current opinion that it is not a good technique)
Another book by Gabe I would recommend is The Combative Perspective : The Thinking Man's Guide to Self-Defense
Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1
Si vis pacem, para bellum
June 11th, 2005 11:28 AM
Thinking "outside the box" is often presented to lend "proof" that something is a good - even superior to "thinking inside the box". Recently, a juvenile court awarded my wife and I full custody of two teenagers on a temporary basis while their mother "got her act together". I learned quickly that thinking outside the box can be demonstratably deterimental, since these two rarely ever had the "box" in sight, much less could they think inside it.
I'm not saying thinking outside the box is bad, but sometimes we intentionally avoid what's in the box, because ostensibly, it's boring, routine, painful, humiliating, not creative, we already know it, not exciting, or it doesn't "market" as well as something "new and improved". When we intentionally avoid thinking inside the box simply because it is inside the box, are we not creating a new box to think in?
I have observed personally that practicing fundamentals (inside the box stuff) also helps me when I'm caught outside the box.
I transferred to a different school and lost contact with Alan. I always wondered if he did win the number one spot on the tennis team.
I used to participate in the Warrior-talk forum regularly, you can go there and do a search and see that I posted a lot. I began to notice a number of what I thought, were condescending remarks from Gabe himself about Gunsite and/or any Cooper derived/based schools and/or techniques. Maybe it was just me, and it very well could be just me, but it looked to me like Gunsite type schools were becoming the board's "whipping boy".
I like and appreciate this forum (Combatcarry) a lot more.
December 1st, 2005 10:53 AM
Second post here. Again, thanks for the kind words. On outside box thinking. I'm reminded of a quote by Mike Tyson - Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
The punch in the mouth came when we began verifying ALL our range drills via force on force. It proved things I'd suspected all along and could now see as a spectator.
For example - in 1991, I was in a gunfigth with three gangmembers outside a 7-11 store. I moved and shot. Things happened automatically and I did not realize I had moved (and not shot from a stance) until I went back later to review things (were the bodies lay, where the cartridges were left, etc.). I was too busy and too jacked up to worry about techniques. But that review got me looking at moving offline (wrote about in Tactical Pistol).
There was no force on force back then, and few people were interested in training that way so it remained a side note in my mind.
Later, when Airsoft brought the ability to train FOF to every private citizen I was able to see this phenomena. If you stand still and try to shoot from a traditional range stance, you will get shot at the same time you shoot. result = tie. Tie = you die too. Solution = move off the x as you draw and shoot. Results = odds of you getting shot decrease. The same thing I experienced on the street.
Moreover, sight pictures. I query students right after their first close encounter with FOF (ie. a knife attack at 12 feet) - "what did you see?"
Responses are anything between "nothing but a big guy with a knife" to "a blurry image of my gun on his chest (meat & metal)". No one has told me, "I have seen a perfect front sight focussed sight picture just as I always do on the shooting range".
So I base my teaching on what I have seen both on the street and in training. Much of it refutes what others are teaching, but my loyalty is only to those who come to me for skills. I have no loyalty to tradition of school styles when it comes to this stuff.
Why do some folks dislike me?
One reason is the way I left law enforcement. If you are interested, go to warriortalk and look up "Gabe's Story". I won't use up band width here for that.
The second reason is my teachings challenge everything they do. For example, I once offered $1000 to anyone who could successfully speed rock me (with airsoft) from street concealment at bad breath distance before I could cut them or stab them (with my training knife). They are put in a position where they cannot pontificate to the lowly civilian student any more...they must prove their positions.
The art of the gun is evolving and developing farther now than it has in the last 50 years. We have guys like Southnarc, Stanford, Givens, Yeager, and me constantly testing everything and looking into areas that have been traditionally ignored by the gun culture. I am very excited about what we are doing and where we will be with this 20 years from now.
Thanks Again and God bless,
Suarez International USA, Inc.
December 1st, 2005 07:19 PM
It's not YOU that some people don't like, but your message. I get cut down every time I point out obvious contradictions in some schools "square range" training.
You hit it on the nail when you implied it's because they are REQUIRED to show proof of their teaching with FoF. Much of the stuff falls apart.
The most frustrating thing is when you confront them in hopes of making them think, they take the "I'm the career teacher here, you are too inexperienced to understand my ways" position.
One can not learn if they already know it all. :(
Your stuff is more solid than any other school I've seen, and I personally fought the SUL after action, but after giving it a fair shakedown I found it worth keeping.
Keep up the good work!
December 1st, 2005 11:08 PM
Having first hand training from Gabe opened my eyes...things you "thought" worked dont...it's on and you have to CYA!
Gabe has good ideas that some fight against because thats all they can regurgitate...they dont seek out new techniques or styles. And as such cannot keep up with a progressive style. Change is hard for some..
Take a class and you will see...I promise. I did..and am glad I did...looking forward to more classes. Training w/FoF has been one of the BEST things I could have ever done to improve myself.
June 11th, 2011 10:04 AM
The case for square range bullseye practice.
Well, it's been a while.
I defy anyone to get any kind of sight picture while running flat out (The "Groucho walk" is not what I'm talking about here).
You don't need a sight picture to hit a guy that's only two or three yards away. But you do need a decent trigger pull (yes, you will be pulling the trigger).
1. Bullseye shooting is an excellent way to learn to squeeze the trigger. Line up the sights. Get a good sight picture. Now, concentrate on the trigger squeeze. If the bullet goes where you wanted it to, you've had a good trigger squeeze.
2. Now do it again.
3. Now do it again.
4. Now do it again.
10,000. Now do it again.
Now, when you are doing FOF or fighting for your life, your trigger pull will be a fast squeeze.
If you don't have a decent trigger pull,...
The best sight picture in the world is worthless if you can't fire the gun without disturbing it.
At bad breath distances, if you have a decent trigger pull, you don't need a sight picture.
By the way, airsoft makes it convenient to get the 10,000 bullseye shots. Basement/garage - every night - 20 to 50 shots. (Note - single shots here. The lack of recoil is deceptive - with real steal, there is a definite recovery time between shots that is greater than with airsoft)
There's a reason The Sopranos
is set in New Jersey.
June 11th, 2011 11:39 AM
Closed. This thread was started in 2005.
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