Gun goes off in hand while disarming - Page 2

Gun goes off in hand while disarming

This is a discussion on Gun goes off in hand while disarming within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I will add....good worthwhile/useful thread. Not new to me personally but, obviously information that many were not aware of an that is what is important. ...

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Thread: Gun goes off in hand while disarming

  1. #16
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    I will add....good worthwhile/useful thread. Not new to me personally but, obviously information that many were not aware of an that is what is important.

    I say this because....while only a relatively small number of members have posted at this point in time....277 have viewed the thread....so far.

    And that number certainly will increase over time.
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    Man that Gnarls Barkley Radiohead cover is beast!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Posted just as a side note.

    If an individual was in a scenario where that person needed to effect a disarm.
    Even IF the front sight was going rip the palm of the hand were the firearm to be discharged during the disarm...would that not always be the better option than being shot?

    Certainly the information is 100% helpful and useful & not being argumentative at all.

    Just making the statement that multiple stitches to the palm of the hand beat out an exploded kidney every time.

    Just adding a bit of food for the general pondering as related to always opting for the lesser injury over a possible major fatal one.
    That's a resounding 10-4.
    If the situation comes down to hand to hand with the bad guy having the drop on you, by deciding to disarm arm him all your cards are in. You can't stop halfway in because of a cut hand.

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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    Oh man! Wow. Thanks so much for posting that. Now I know.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    That's a resounding 10-4.
    If the situation comes down to hand to hand with the bad guy having the drop on you, by deciding to disarm arm him all your cards are in. You can't stop halfway in because of a cut hand.
    You won't even feel it if it happens, until later, if you're lucky
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  7. #21
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    As noted by PAcanis, Turning right as opposed to left or the way the trigger finger bend is dependent on which side you are caught dissarming from. Always pushing away. It will tend to hurt the bad guy far worse if disarming from the bad side which is never a bad thing.

    It looks so easy but is a great training day with your partner, so worth it at the end of target practice, once at home, and once you have triple checked all the necessary precautions. If I may, I would suggest saving the live-fire training until you have the disarm down very well.

    Best training vid all round I have seen. Thanks for the share.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array CommonCents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasbo00 View Post
    Here is a related video I like...

    very interesting how light pressure can impede the slide, i'd thought it would take more than that.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasbo00 View Post
    Here is a related video I like...

    This video also demonstrates how even slightly poor grip/handling skills and techniques can cause the gun to malfunction.
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  10. #24
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    Thanks Brownie, good stuff!

    Note that the most effective strike with your free hand is as close to the wrist as possible.

    Another word of warning to those who may want to try the disarm from the inside, i.e., bending the hand the other direction go slowly because done at speed it will likely result in a broken finger for the attacker. Don't abuse your training partner because it will be your turn next!

  11. #25
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    i don't think i can stress it enough that we must be very Very careful when performing any kind of disarm, holster move, or any other kind of defensive trick when performing it with a loaded weapon. The other day i was watching a guy that said he was going to show us how to grab his weapon from the weak side if the strong side became disabled, well, when he reached for his pistol he grabbed the trigger instead of the grip and yip you guessed it he shot himself in the foot. Needless to say the video came to an abrupt halt.

    Be safe out there!
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  12. #26
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    Having watched and tried a few disarms, you also need to be careful you don't break your partner's fingers (gun without trigger guard is best, blue plastic gun, whatever) in practice play.

    One Krav Maga expert basically said to count on the gun going off in the real event (disarm maneuver). In other words, don't hold out hope of the gun being silent without discharge. Count on it going off. If you take that as a premise, then in my mind, you need to plan moments ahead which way you want that gun pointing when it goes off. Although many videos teach one uniform method, I've seen the disarms bending the hand either outward relative to the wrist, or inward, pushing the wrist the opposite direction and towards you. When you bend it outward, you can break the trigger finger of the actor, which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course. Since you can bend the hand either way (or even upwards), you can direct this anticipated discharge in a direction away from innocents (and potentially towards accomplices I suppose). So determining which way will work easiest without harming others would be going through my mind before acting, although you need to act swiftly and decisively when the time is ripe.

    It is possible to attempt to keep the gun from firing in the disarm by slightly backing the slide out of battery (as you grab hold of it) or holding a revolver's cylinder (again as you grab hold of the weapon) and preventing it from turning, both of which with prevent the gun from firing, but I guess don't count on being able to accomplish that aim.

    As others point out, it's an all in or nothing move. You commit or you don't. Might seem risky, but action beats reaction, and it's actually not so difficult to do in practice. I've seen MMA experts in videos where they say it's pie in the sky optimism that you'll be in proximity, etc. to pull this off, so who knows for sure. Never seen one in real life caught on video, so it must not be used too often. But nice to have in your bag of tricks.

    This guy gives a pretty good demo from the Krav Maga perspective:

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonCents View Post
    very interesting how light pressure can impede the slide, i'd thought it would take more than that.
    I witnessed quite a bit of that in the 80's with the gamers and their flagged/forward thumbs. A misplaced thumb would put force on the side of the slide and prevent it's fully cycling. I didn't have that problem, shooting thumbs locked down like an old school disciple, which I am. lol
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichard View Post
    Having watched and tried a few disarms, you also need to be careful you don't break your partner's fingers (gun without trigger guard is best, blue plastic gun, whatever) in practice play.

    One Krav Maga expert basically said to count on the gun going off in the real event (disarm maneuver). In other words, don't hold out hope of the gun being silent without discharge. Count on it going off. If you take that as a premise, then in my mind, you need to plan moments ahead which way you want that gun pointing when it goes off. Although many videos teach one uniform method, I've seen the disarms bending the hand either outward relative to the wrist, or inward, pushing the wrist the opposite direction and towards you. When you bend it outward, you can break the trigger finger of the actor, which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course. Since you can bend the hand either way (or even upwards), you can direct this anticipated discharge in a direction away from innocents (and potentially towards accomplices I suppose). So determining which way will work easiest without harming others would be going through my mind before acting, although you need to act swiftly and decisively when the time is ripe.

    It is possible to attempt to keep the gun from firing in the disarm by slightly backing the slide out of battery (as you grab hold of it) or holding a revolver's cylinder (again as you grab hold of the weapon) and preventing it from turning, both of which with prevent the gun from firing, but I guess don't count on being able to accomplish that aim.

    As others point out, it's an all in or nothing move. You commit or you don't. Might seem risky, but action beats reaction, and it's actually not so difficult to do in practice. I've seen MMA experts in videos where they say it's pie in the sky optimism that you'll be in proximity, etc. to pull this off, so who knows for sure. Never seen one in real life caught on video, so it must not be used too often. But nice to have in your bag of tricks.

    This guy gives a pretty good demo from the Krav Maga perspective:

    I'm not going to consider this method of disarms. Watch every one he makes, he doesn't get his body/head off line of the muzzle while his hands/arms start to move. That is adding a risk element unnecessarily, and a serious violation of the mandate to be successful. Those being
    1. get body part of line of muzzle
    2. make contact/take control of the gun
    3. relieve them of the gun

    The first two have to be performed in unison. Not that what's shown doesn't work, but it does add more risk than necessary.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    The first two have to be performed in unison.
    Yes, that's what I've seen in demo after demo.

  16. #30
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    While I haven't seen disarms quite like the ones above in real life videos, I have seen other disarms go south. If you watch the Active Self Protection channel on Youtube, John has quite the collection of videos sent to him and many depict a gun to the face, as in a convenience store robbery. What you notice after watching several of them is that there is an innate instinct to bat the gun away from the face instantly, without consciously thinking it over. The trouble comes when the victim gives a half hearted attempt to control the gun. Many times these particular victims end up murdered shortly thereafter, as the perp gains control of the gun by pulling back, putting some distance between themselves and then shooting the victim point blank. The perp has one advantage in that he has hold of the grip, and once he pulls back far enough, he has greater leverage than your outstretched arms. Lesson is, you need to swiftly dominate that hand/wrist/arm as indicated in the disarm videos, and not let the perp pull the gun back to where they are then dominating. It's an immediate matter of life and death, and I've seen it many times across the world in these videos. Very sad to see the good guy go down. Other lesson is, if you don't feel you have the confidence to pull it off, maybe you're better off complying, unless things look like they are going even further south (as in killing all witnesses). This how John evaluates these scenarios as they unfold.

    And as discussed just above, a number of victims who fight for the gun end up being shot as they pull on the gun with the gun still pointed at themselves. It definitely happens. Happens with rifles too. The common scenario is fighting for the gun over a counter, where the robber is trying to get the cashier to give up cash. If the gunman gets his gun back to his half of the counter, in all likelihood he will win the struggle (so don't let that happen!)
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