Integrated Threat Focused Training--Review

Integrated Threat Focused Training--Review

This is a discussion on Integrated Threat Focused Training--Review within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First, I want to thank Brownie, Rex, Mike, and Jeff for making me feel welcome. You made this an extremely enjoyable weekend. For those that ...

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Thread: Integrated Threat Focused Training--Review

  1. #1
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Integrated Threat Focused Training--Review

    First, I want to thank Brownie, Rex, Mike, and Jeff for making me feel welcome. You made this an extremely enjoyable weekend.

    For those that don't get to the end of the review, the bottom line is this is very effective training and we learned a wide range of real world skills and techniques in a short time. Brownie is an experienced teacher, which makes his instruction appear effortless. You don't realize you are learning yet you are able to perform the skills, effectively, almost immediately.

    I am a new shooter. I had never fired a hand gun until June of this year. I had never fired from a draw. This review comes from the ultimate civilian.

    We were at the range (thanks Rex) at 8:30. We assembled the targets and began the class. The first skill we learned is called 'elbow up, elbow down'. Simply put, it is a draw and then shoot from the hip. We practiced that skill a bit and then Brownie showed us how to make it faster. Then, faster again. Already a novice like myself was able to draw, put the gun on target and get a few shots on COM without even looking at the gun!

    We then learned an amazing skill: shooting the BG from behind. With a few simple moves, and without turning around, we learned to get rounds on the BG far faster than the pivot, line up the front sight and pull the trigger one would guess as a resonse toan attack from behind. From that skill we were able to move from position, all the while putting rounds on the target as we gained distance.

    We then learned Brownie's trademark move, Quick Kill. This skill allows someone to accurately hit a target, even hundreds of yards away, without looking at the front sight. At closer ranges, it seems like you can't miss.

    From there we went to many moving and shooting skills. We learned to create distance from the BG while putting rounds on target from the right and the left. Moving is not one of my strong points and even I was able to put rounds on target. Brownie demostrated these skills with the grace of a ballet dancer. And believe me, he does not look like a ballet dancer.

    We learned to run laterally while putting rounds on target. (I had to walk fast.) We learned to point and shoot. We learned the bump, the zipper, and how to engage two target simultaneously.

    Just writing this makes me realize how much material we were able to cover, practice and review in a single day. The definition of a great teacher is when you learn and you don't even realize it.

    Day 2.

    We began by practicing some of the skills we did yesterday. Then we went on to the force on force training putting the skills we learned to real world situations. We geared up with Airsoft pistols, face masks, and sweatshirts. (Cups were optional.)

    First, let me say that Airsoft is a misnomer. There is nothing soft about it. Personally, I have three nasty looking welts (through my jeans.) I think Jeff was purposely aiming low. Brownie got nailed on his nail.

    This training demonstrated how to attack a BG drawing at bad breath range. Brownie showed how to do both the gun grab and counter the action. A gun at your back or aimed at your head has specfic techniques that Brownie demonstrated. It made me realize how important the close quarter fighting is to xomplement the gun skills in the self defense toolbox.

    In summary, I think this is effective training for the novice or an experienced person. I could go to the range a thousand times, standing there and shooting at a target at various ranges, left hand/right hand, and it would be impossible to learn what I accomplished in two days.

    I am already looking forward to my next opportunity to train with Brownie. It was an absolutely fun weekend!

    Thanks, Brownie, for this invaluable training. It may one day save my life.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Rossman's Avatar
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    It sounds like a great few days spent well worth it.

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    SelfDefense,

    I thank you for your thoughts on the Flagstaff class this weekend. At the end of the first and second day, you were as proficient as the other students who had considerable previous experience and training with handguns.

    It was a pleasure to meet and train with you. I look forward to training with you again in the future.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  4. #4
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Sounds fun.
    When's the next Flagstaff class?
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    This is one of the classes that I really want to take. With any luck I'll manage to work it in soon- you never know what the future holds and I'd hate to miss the opportunity.

    That said, I have a very hard time believing this:
    This skill allows someone to accurately hit a target, even hundreds of yards away, without looking at the front sight.
    If someone could regularly hit a target "hundreds of yards away" with a pistol I'd be impressed. To do it without looking at the sights would be amazing. If it is true, I really need to get to the class.
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  6. #6
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    This skill allows someone to accurately hit a target, even hundreds of yards away, without looking at the front sight.

    From another students post-

    The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

    SelfDefense watched as I hit targets of opportunity out to about 130 yrds below line of sight in the course. Others have seen and duplicated shots out to 175 yrds or more in a few of the courses. We can't always do this based on the range we are on, but out here in Az, in the wide open spaces we use regularly for the classes, I demo it and students can fairly replicate it after less than a day.

    Granted it's not firing quickly by any means, but it is absolutely doable once you own the Quick Kill from below line of sight. Every student brings their own strengths to the classes, and some achieve better results than others in this.

    It's demo-ed to show that while you may be 100 yds or further and taking incoming from rifle fire, you can get rds off fairly quickly while seeking cover. Those rds will strike on threat or so close to thread as to get that person to move and take cover themselves.

    Hundreds of yrds? Perhaps a little optimisitic, but 100 yrds and well beyond is certainly within the realm of the QK skills imparted in the classes with little effort with a pistol. It's not that difficult when you know how.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  7. #7
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    A veteran police firearms trainer from Ca reported this after being out here last year for some one on one training.

    I was shooting a rock, 12" in diameter at 60yds....did I mention no sights!!! 90% hits...the shots that did not hit were real close, enough to make that rock jump if it had legs.

    Not 100 yrds, but at these shorter distances as he mentions above, the time between shots is one after the other very quickly.

    Brownie
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    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Typically i Stay out of these but not this on the Bull is way to deep Hundreds or yards yeah what ever ..

    As a long time Handgun Hunter i can tell you its hard enough to hit the target at 100+ yards with a long Barrel 41 Mag or above wheelie with a 7" or longer Barrel.. Even with a scope it hard but not as hard as using the sights..

    Most people out there can hit reliably with a Rifle and 3x9 scope at 100+ Yards and you expect me to believe that your doing it hundreds or yards with no sights .. not gonna happen .

    Now will i believe your a good shot at 100 yards and can repeatedly hit with Iron sights sure i can tear it up at that range after years and years of practice but your average handgunner is not gonna Do it..

    Claims are all great proof is in the pudding .. I've Seen enough QK and point shooting where after 10 yards i could do better with a shotgun using buckshot then what they got on paper.

  9. #9
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    Bud White;

    There are those who have seen it done, done it themselves, and those who haven't in either instance.

    Rex [ member Flagflyfish here ] saw me take his short barreled 1911 and hit at something just over a hundred on a 5 gallon can lid sitting on a bank with a snap shot below line of sight in the first Flagstaff class.

    Believe what you want, or not, thats quite up to you. Now that you've called it, lets raise the stakes. Anytime you'd like to wager some very serious money, I'm up for it all day long with NO sights on the gun just to alleviate any doubt I might have used them for you.

    Rex himself was making good use of no sights on the bank as well and several of his below line of sights shots were scattered around that 5 gallon lid. You'd not want to be standing there long or you'd get nailed PDQ.

    Remember Bud, I didn't say "hundreds" of yrds in my post. I also know a few men like J Music who can replicate the same skills and has been doing so for some years. It's not all that difficult.

    Brownie
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    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  10. #10
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    I certainly didn't mean to stir the pot with 'hundreds of yards.' In retrospect, I should have written 'more than one hundred yards.' The truth is my depth perception is weak.

  11. #11
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    I'll take that bet Brownie. Let's shoot at a one gallon jug at a hundred yards though; that's a little closer to a COM hit. I'll use sights and you use QK. You give me a dollar every time I hit and I'll give you a dollar every time you hit using QK. 100 rounds, 100 yards, no sights on your gun.

    Wanna do a bonus on who hits the fastest?
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    That wouldn't be a very fair bet sir.

    The flag was raised no one could hit something at 100 or further, and it's very doable without sights. I didn't suggest anywhere I wouldn't also be using my sights at those distances, it's only an exercise to demonstrate it's possible.

    I've Seen enough QK and point shooting where after 10 yards i could do better with a shotgun using buckshot then what they got on paper.

    Not sure where he saw qk pistol, but if the person showing it couldn't keep groups better than a shotgun at 10 yds, they weren't using qk properly. BTW-where did he see qk with a pistol anyway?

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  13. #13
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    I think the point here Brownie is that QK is presented as defensive shooting skill. Somehow extremes got brought into this which rightfully raises the question, how does this compare to other methods. Well, claiming shots can be made at 100+ yards implies application of QK to defensive shooting at these ranges, or that it may be a better choice or an acceptable choice at those ranges. I don't believe it is, and maybe it should not be implied that it is.

    The logic here being, if I can always shoot more accurate and faster with sights at a given distance, why would I choose something less?

    I'm not knocking QK, but we badly need some perspective here.
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  14. #14
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    Tangle,

    I thought the perspective was given with this statement of mine earlier:

    It's demo-ed to show that while you may be 100 yds or further and taking incoming from rifle fire, you can get rds off fairly quickly while seeking cover.

    No more or less

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  15. #15
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    The implication is that the demo shows QK is viable at 100+ yards and would be better than other techniques to deal with incoming rifle fire.

    If it wouldn't be fair to pit QK against my sighted fire at 100+ yards, then how could it be better to deal with incoming fire?
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