The use (art?) of covering fire?

The use (art?) of covering fire?

This is a discussion on The use (art?) of covering fire? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Envisage a situation where maybe there are two BG's - both armed. You are not in the best situation to engage either due to the ...

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Thread: The use (art?) of covering fire?

  1. #1
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    The use (art?) of covering fire?

    Envisage a situation where maybe there are two BG's - both armed. You are not in the best situation to engage either due to the threat level but - cover is close by - always good to seek.

    What are folk's thoughts on the value of covering fire while scooting to a cover location nearby? I am thinking that for most part this will not be, and maybe cannot be, aimed fire or even too accurate but - might this ''keep their heads down''? I feel that any ''incoming'' is always going to distract!

    This brings up another aspect too - geared to both platform capacity and ... availability of reloads. If for example you had just 7+1 in a 1911 ... covering fire might well use half or more of the ammo - and so a reload once cover reached would be probably essential. Which brings up the usefullness of spare mags as well as the capacity issue.

    OTOH a 9mm with like mine 15+1, would allow for squeezing off a few and yet still being supplied with perhaps a remaining 6 or so rounds. If a spare mag and time then a tac' reload probably very desirable.

    I doubt any of us will ever have to face a true ''gunfight'' and multiple aggressors but - the analysis of the possibility brought this question to mind.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Ya gotta do what you got do.

    Its important to realize that EVERY single shot must be accounted for when the shooting is over. In many places, "covering" fire may not be the best thing to do due to population density.

    If that is what it takes to get home though, so be it. At least you'll have the option of talking to l cops and laywers when its over.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Hello Chris, there has been a significant advancement of the art on shooting with dynamic movement over the last couple of years. This advancement is at the point where accurate fire can be put on the threat while moving at extreme speeds. There are a few instructors that actually specialize in these skill sets. They include Gabe Suarez, 7677, and myself.

    Inside typical and logical self defense distances these skill sets are definitely transferable to the students within a very short time. What used to be considered impossible just a few short years ago is now one of the fastest growing skill sets being taught right now.

    There are definitely prerequisite skills that are needed to get to this point. They include the following,

    Absolute confidence in an ability to point shoot

    One handed shooting skills that are very close to your two handed skills.

    Understanding of body mechanics

    An open mind that understands that this new skill set has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the past.

    Shooting with dynamic movement is not just cover fire any more. It can be a solid, combat accurate skill set.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

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    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    Thumbs up Chris is always thinking. Good Man!

    Certainly and logically the more accurately placed any suppressive fire can be accomplished would equal better survive-ability odds for the good guy.
    So absolutely the ability to actually get hits on meat while moving would be ideal.
    Especially these days when the bad guys are too dumb to duck - either that or they are drugged and delusional to the degree that they believe they are immortal.

    My personal opinion is that a quickly & well accomplished reload should always done (if possible) > keywords: if possible < once good cover has been attained & no matter what the original magazine capacity be...15 or 7.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Hmmmm... according to Roger, my best bet is to hightail to the thickest hardcover I can find at this level of training. I have done shooting on the move and I am amazed at how innacurate I can be with the target almost close enough to spit.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

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    I vote for moving as fast as I can. Shooting would slow me down. Pop off a couple to get their heads down, then run like mad.

    If you are lucky enough to have a buddy then I think leapfrogging is the way to go.
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Hmmmm... according to Roger, my best bet is to hightail to the thickest hardcover I can find at this level of training. I have done shooting on the move and I am amazed at how innacurate I can be with the target almost close enough to spit.
    This is a skill set that can be, has been, and is being taught in one weekend course. I have taken peole with zero "tactical" training to a very high level on a number of occasions. If you show up with good safety habits and decent fundamentals, achieving this in one week end is no problem at all.

    We spend the first four hours teaching you the two handed point shooting fundamentals (all the way through your draw stroke.) The second four hours is spent of one handed point shooting skills (all the way through your draw stroke) and breaking away from any sort of draw stroke, position, or stance dependence. We establish the ability to shoot in any direction using hand/eye coordination off of your visual centerline.

    The entire second day is spent taking these new skills into the world of dynamic movement. This is nothing like what has been taught in the past. When we talk about dynamic movement or extreme movement we are talking about a simultaneous explosive move during the draw storke that accelerates into a "lowered based run." Making the hits on this lowered based run is actually very easy once you have the hand/eye coordination down. The challenge and the major sucess in this advancement of the art comes down to making that very first hit while exploding off of the X while drawing and indexing directly to the threat.

    This "dynamic movement draw stroke" is the key to fast and accurate shooting while moving at extreme speeds. This newly refined draw stoke has you making the hits by the second step.....all while exploding off of the X as soon and as quickly as possible (the take off.) This "hit by the second step" opens up an entirely new tactic that leaves the older established concepts in a very narrow niche. The concept of this takeoff is something that I have been doing for decades while playing football. Concepts from tennis and track and field have also been added to the mix to refine it to be as effective and efficient as possible. What is nice is that this all works out of the startled response of a typical reactive gun fight.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

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    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    HG brings up something I omitted .. indeed yes every round needs accounted for and so in this situation rule #4 is gonna be the deciding factor. Probably the first split second of reaction has to be the decision as to whether any suppressive fire is viable.

    If we imagined something akin to urban with available backstop of brick wall then this could be safely employed I think - but out in the open probably very risky.

    This advancement is at the point where accurate fire can be put on the threat while moving at extreme speeds.
    I am sure this is possible Roger but for an old dude like me who is unlikely to ever manage the saturation training needed to be that proficient ....... I'll have to accept that not all my shots can be guaranteed hits where needed. Oh and plus - hardly the athlete any more LOL!

    I do practice on the move quite a lot but still find almost consistently - my first shot after the draw is a miss, then I begin to connect ..... so probably two to three hits.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Pop off a couple to get their heads down, then run like mad.
    Force on force has proven this to be a very poor tactic in typical CCW situations (behind in the reactionary curve.) If you are not moving/drawing simultaneously and getting hits on board as quickly as possible.....you will get shot.

    We have to understand what this concept is all about. The explosive movement is to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and make them begin to react to you. Putting hits on board as quickly as possible is the very best way to take the initiative back and go from "behind in the reactionary curve" to a "dominant" position. This is the way that reactive gunfights are won, by taking back the initative.

    If we "stand and deliver" then run in a reactionary gun fight, you will be a sitting duck and easily shot. If you just run and "get the heck out of Dodge" then the adversaries has a unchallenge perfect sight picture at your fleeing rear end. In FOF we call that "giving flank." Niether of these two tactics do well under the testing of FOF.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

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    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    So if we decide this could be a viable tactic for a civilian or a LE and he is laying down this suppressive fire, one would also assume that he is responsible for any innocent by standers he shoots and/or property damage that he causes. In a combat situation this is a viable option but in my opinion it should be avoided if at all possible in the civilian world.

    Most people cannot shoot accurately while performing dynamic movement at speed, point shooting or aimed fire.

    FOF on force has shown us that you can move for about 3 steps before the gun can get back on you and get accurate shots. So if there is not available cover within that distance one may want to think about it before committing to it, how ever if you commit and have started some form of movement stopping and going back could also prove fatal.
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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    I am sure this is possible Roger but for an old dude like me who is unlikely to ever manage the saturation training needed to be that proficient ....... I'll have to accept that not all my shots can be guaranteed hits where needed. Oh and plus - hardly the athlete any more LOL!
    This is definitely a good point. So far my "Point Shooting Progressions" course has been geared to the most advanced and motivated guys. In 2008 I am going to add an "Intermediate" course that will be geared more to the "average Joe."

    In my advanced course, I have had guys show up that had physical limitations. These limitations were due to age, injury, and weight but they all did very well in my course due to the fact that we work with their own personal "situation." The "situation" is the dictating factor of all self defense encounter and the fact is that ones own limitation is a key component of the "situation." I have had a few 65+ year old guys in my advanced course and they were able to do everything that the rest of the class was able to do......just within their own comfort level. An instructor must be able to customize his teachings to the students "situation."

    My new "Intermediate" course should open the doors to a number of people that have concerns about stepping in over their heads. The pace is going to be much slower. The lectures are going to be more thorough. The round count is going to be much lower. The emphasis/goal is not going to be all about "dynamic movement." We will cover the most basic concepts of movement and keep it well with in everyones abilities and comfort level.

    So if we decide this could be a viable tactic for a civilian or a LE and he is laying down this suppressive fire, one would also assume that he is responsible for any innocent by standers he shoots and/or property damage that he causes. In a combat situation this is a viable option but in my opinion it should be avoided if at all possible in the civilian world.
    This is why I believe so strongly about recieving training in the correct use of "shooting with dynamic movement." This takes us away from the past concept of "suppressive fire" to a proven skill set of making the hits with dynamic movement. This training completely eliminates the past concept of suppressive fire. It is no longer something that you ever have to consider. You do not have to consider it because you have the training, the knowledge, and the skill to make the hits with dynamic movement.

    This training makes it impossible for the prosecutor to accuse you of suppressive fire.....because you have been trained to not need suppressive fire.

    In life threatening circumstances misses happen! They happen at two feet, they happen at twenty yards, they happen with sighted fire, they happen while point shooting, they happen while standing still, and they happen while on the move. Our responsibility is to be the best that we can be for all of these situations.
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; September 30th, 2007 at 05:58 PM.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

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    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Yea ok.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
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    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Roger,

    Supressive fire is what is used in the military along with fire and manuvere. Your tactic is fire while on the move. This is fine in the civilian sector. But like 95 says and you seem to realize us old guys are not as quick as we used to be. I agree with your concept. I try to practice it but at a slower pace. I would feel silly getting into a class or 20 year olds and looking stupid. I like your ideas and would like to know more about them.

    Semper Fi

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    Roger,

    Supressive fire is what is used in the military along with fire and manuvere. Your tactic is fire while on the move. This is fine in the civilian sector. But like 95 says and you seem to realize us old guys are not as quick as we used to be. I agree with your concept. I try to practice it but at a slower pace. I would feel silly getting into a class or 20 year olds and looking stupid. I like your ideas and would like to know more about them.

    Semper Fi
    I would put the average age of my students at around 40 years old. At the beginning of this month I had a course in Reno and we had a couple of the guys that were around 55 years old. One of them showed up with his shooting partner that was in his early twenties.

    There is a certain camaraderie inside my classes that looks past age, athleticism, and physical limitations. I believe that is because this has nothing to do with the ego based marksmanship that we see in many courses. What we have here is a varying group of students learning a brand new skill set and pushing their personal limitations has far as they can. There is much respect given to anyone that has the guts to take a course like this. We have every one in the course pushing as hard as they can and a certain respect comes out of this "exploring your limitations" concept.

    This type of training is the type that you will always learn more from a miss, than you will a perfect hit. We do not learn anything until we have found the limitations. When everyone in the course is pushing for this "establishment of your personal limitations" then no one goes with out the respect and the appreciation of the rest of the class.

    Some of my best students have been close to 70 years old.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

    http://fightfocusedconcepts.wordpress.com/

    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

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    I need to hit the Lotto big time and move to Arizona for a year of no-stop training and fun.
    Roger, thank you very much for your insights.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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