rapid fire / double taps - HELP!

rapid fire / double taps - HELP!

This is a discussion on rapid fire / double taps - HELP! within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; alright. i need help i cant double tap worth crap. when im target shooting i use my iron sights and when i am doing defensive ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    Unhappy rapid fire / double taps - HELP!

    alright. i need help
    i cant double tap worth crap.
    when im target shooting i use my iron sights and when i am doing defensive (IDPA style) shooting i use my laser grips.
    either way, i can never get anywhere near a decent second shot.
    just cant get the timing right. always way too low or high.
    any suggestions?


  2. #2
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    Array SIXTO's Avatar
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    First thing turn off your laser, or just take it off your gun. Better yet, sell it and buy more ammo to practice with. Its the only thing thats going to help you become a good shooter.

    Then, learn just where your trigger reset is. GO SLOW, squeeze off your first round, line it back up, allow your trigger to reset and gently squeeze the second round.
    The key is to concentrate on the trigger and its reset point. Once you do this, the speed of a true "double tap" will come to you quickly.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    +1 on the trigger reset. Practice practice practice. I had a H#% of a time when I tried double taps in a class until the instructor explained the concept of trigger reset. I'm still learning to do it by memory. I find myself thinking about it more than I should.

    on a related note, in the IDPA shoot I was doing Sat, there was a SWAT member running double taps quick enough to bounce the brass off one another in mid air...something I want to strive to do with his accuracy..
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    thanks for the help so far.
    as far as the laser goes, thats not something im getting rid of.
    right now i cannot shoot with both eyes open (and yes its something im working on, by my eyes are unusually non dominant so its not coming quickly).
    I do practice idpa style stuff with my laser off as well, but then im more or less point shooting.

    i can feel where my trigger resets. it feels to me that more my problem is getting it lines back up with the target- recovering from recoil

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    thanks for the help so far.
    as far as the laser goes, thats not something im getting rid of.
    right now i cannot shoot with both eyes open (and yes its something im working on, by my eyes are unusually non dominant so its not coming quickly).
    I do practice idpa style stuff with my laser off as well, but then im more or less point shooting.

    i can feel where my trigger resets. it feels to me that more my problem is getting it lines back up with the target- recovering from recoil
    I know I'm going to catch some heat over this, but the laser is really going to hinder progress in a number of ways. An athelete does not become competitive on crutches, but thats not what this thread is about.

    Another thing to work on is holding the gun steady, and not letting the recoil control the gun. You control it...

    It is neat when you can bounce brass in mid air.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    do you suggest that i shoot one eye closed then?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    go get some low recoil ammo, lots of it (about 2000-3000) and spend a day at the range with no laser. Just start out with the basic of shooting with trigger pull, breathing, line of sight and stance and eventually you'll be able to get the "feel" of it and then be able to pull off double taps by pointing it.
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    does anyone know anybody that just point shoots?
    as i said, the only i can really use the sights is when i am doing slow target shooting with one eye closed.
    i would like to be able to do all the IDPA / defensive style stuff just with more or less point shooting. thats pretty much what i do now, i just use the laser sometimes as a basic guide to make sure im not too far off.
    maybe ill just take my sights off

  9. #9
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    I just point shoot at combat distances...

    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    do you suggest that i shoot one eye closed then?
    No. Is your issue a true medical problem or is it a mental block? We all have theat mental block, and just need to retrain our brains to use both eyes.

    Another tip is to dry fire a lot, but this time pay close attention to your trigger reset. Once it resets, dont let up anymore an the trigger. This will help muscle memory and increase your speed.
    Last edited by SIXTO; October 14th, 2007 at 04:44 PM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    does anyone know anybody that just point shoots?
    as i said, the only i can really use the sights is when i am doing slow target shooting with one eye closed.
    i would like to be able to do all the IDPA / defensive style stuff just with more or less point shooting. thats pretty much what i do now, i just use the laser sometimes as a basic guide to make sure im not too far off.
    maybe ill just take my sights off
    On the first question, yes there are guys that just point shoot. I am not one of them but they are out there. I do not agree with the exclusion of either sighted or unsighted fire.....they go hand in hand.

    Second, it would be a very good idea to seperate "IDPA/defensive style stuff" into two seperate catagories. The two are very different! One is "shooting for a score" and the second is "shooting to live." The bodies physiological response to each is very different and needs to be address as so.

    As I mentioned earlier, I seamlessly integrate sighted and unsighted fire. That is my specialty as an instructor. It sounds to me as if you may need some specific training for your situation. I would recommend that you seek out and train with one of the experts in this skill set. Matt Temkin is in NYC, 7677 is in Ohio, Gabe Suarez is based out of AZ, and I am based out of Las Vegas.

    Either of us can get you squared away very quickly. Check Gabe's and my schedule of courses here.

    http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

    Or PM Matt Temkin or 7677 here on the forum.

  11. #11
    Member Array ExSniper's Avatar
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    To work on the eye dominance issue, put a piece of tape or a target paster on the lens of your shooting glasses blocking the vision of your weak eye. Then shoot with both eyes open. Since the weak eye is blocked you will see fine with your dominant eye and not fatigue as quickly as shooting with one eye closed. Eventually you should be able to remove the tape.

    True "double taps" is the process of squeezing the trigger twice, as rapidly as possible with only ONE sight picture. Aim like you always do, squeeze the trigger, when it breaks, release just to reset point and squeeze again! Just takes practice. Start doing this at very close range , like 2 or 3 yards. As you improve, increase the distance.

    Generally speaking, double taps are way over rated! Whether aiming, point-shooting, or using a laser, it is much better to slow down, aim EACH shot and squeeze the trigger. Work on technique and accuracy, then speed will follow! Don't rely on the laser to the point that you quit using other techniques, some day your laser will fail and you need to be able to continue the fight!
    Last edited by ExSniper; October 15th, 2007 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    as far as the eye thing goes-
    i actually know quite a few ppl with this problem.
    i wouldnt say its a medical or mental problem. they are one in the same.
    i have tried and tried to train my right eye to be more dominant (right now its only slightly dominant).
    its hard for me to explain but i will try my best to give you examples of what i have tried to do and what i see

    1. the old make a pinhole with your hands and look at a light through it- close one eye then the other to see which is dominant:
    i just get messed up every time i try and do this. if i make the circle with my hands and hold it up far away from me and try to look at something through it, i naturally hold up the whole inbetween where i would hold if i were just using my right or left eye. which means- i cant see the object im trying to. i initially put the whole where it doesnt line up with the object, the have to either move it to right or left to see it- which defeats the purpse.

    2. the whole. point to an object. then close one eye then other to see which eye is dominant:
    i close my right eye and my finger is right of the object. i close my left and my finger is left of the object- so again, my brain as far as i can tell is having my finger point directly in between the line from the object to my right eye and the line from the object to my left eye.

    3. just trying to look at my front sight with both eyes open...
    its not that i see the front sight and have two targets, its that i cant see the front sight. this one is hard to explain. i dont have my gun in front of me right now so this may be explained badly.
    if i were to focus on the back sights i can see them fine, and i see two front sights as one should, but for most people, one front sight would be between the 2 back sights and one would be to the right of left of them. my two front sights (this is if my sights are aligned correctly) are located directly behind by 2 rear sights- thus i cant see them.
    i can try and look at the front sight, but here things get kinda messed up. ill have to do this when i get home and explain it better then. I have done this a million times trying to make it work but have been very unsuccessful. Usually giving me a headache.

    things i have already tried:
    closing left eye, lining up got with right eye, slowly open left eye:
    as soon as my left eye is open, my brain focuses with just the left eye (i see pretty much exactly what i would see if i opened my left and closed my right then) . exact same thing happens if i try lining it up with my left and slowly opening the right eye.

    shifting the gun over the the right so its directly in front of the right eye: nothing changes

    scotch tape glasses over left eye and keep both open:
    after a 2 or 3 pieces of scotch tape, i see the sights just as if i had my left eye closed. But, this does not help in the long run as many say it will. I would have to wear these glasses 24-7 for a year before it make my right eye dominant im pretty sure.
    what good does it do if as soon as i take the tape of things are how they were before?

    Flutter or squint left eye:
    no difference- or same as the tape. i either see with both eyes equally or just with one eye. if my left eye is open its being used. simple as that.

    and final note: NO- I am not just left eye dominant thinking im right.

    anyways. so thats why i have a laser. i dont use it a primary thing. i dont aim using the laser. I use it to double check my point shooting more or less. I point, squeeze on laser to check positioning (is usually pretty good) and then squeeze trigger. so enough about that.

    having that said... back to double taps:
    having a 1911, i have a very short reset distance.
    the time it takes for my gun to come back down into position is WAY longer than it is to reset. im sure this is the case for most if not all guns. so how does one get it to quickly fire accurately (the guy with the the brass hitting each other mid air) ? I have seen people shoot very quickly and its obvious that they are squeezing again as soon as the trigger resets, but how is the gun back in position by then. are they forcing it down or letting it come back down? Maybe it just seems like such a long time for me when im shooting compared to watching.
    The recoil on my gun is not huge.
    some ppl say that you should control the recoil, while others say you should let it do its thing. which is better and why?

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I shoot with my left eye closed. I have been doing it since I was in the Corps. I have the same problem as you. With both eyes open I see two front sights. At real close range I look over the sights. Point shoot if you wish. I hit pretty good that way. Double taps just take practice and a good grip. Good luck.

    Semper Fi

  14. #14
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    It's kind of funny that this should come up because in the class that my husband and I took about three weeks ago touched on this A LOT.

    This was a general defensive handgun class and even though the instructor HATED the idea of "double-taps" (mainly because he believed you should not train yourself just to shoot twice and then look around, but rather keep shooting, as fast as you effectively can, no matter how many rounds you fire, until the threat is neutralized) he did believe that a serious defensive shooter should be able to effectively deliver 2-3 shots a second, and more with proper training and practice.

    He also had a good idea what to do with dominant eye issues.

    He also had screwy eye dominance and when asked about this (as my husband is right-handed with left eye dominance) the instructor said, "Okay, I know this is going to confound some of you (insert sarcasm here) but, check this out. You have two eyes. If you close one, then the other instantly becomes the most dominant of the two."

    He then asked those of us who felt we could effectively shoot with both eyes open to raise our hands. Out of twelve people in the room, only about 3 or 4 raised their hands.

    He went on to tell us that while shooting with both eyes open is ideal, it's something that some people, no matter how much they try, can't obtain without hurting speed or accuracy.

    His solution was not to agonize over shooting with both eyes open all the time, but to train yourself to close one eye right as you are focusing on the front sight and pulling the trigger... make the shots, open your eyes, look around, engage again as necessary.

    He explained that we can only engage one target at a time anyway, and if we are shooting effectively and quickly and opening our eyes again to scan while moving, there's no reason why we shouldn't close one eye to get the best accuracy possible in that brief second. He then impressed on us that with training and practice, one could go from closing the eye to just squinting a little so that the sight picture was still present with the forced-dominant eye, but vision was not completely restricted from the other.

    Some may disagree on this technique of teaching and that is fine. All I know is that several people in that class, including my husband, were relieved to find there was nothing wrong with them and that they could stop agonizing about something that was hindering them, and use what they instinctively knew and build upon it to make it work.

    I've always shot pistols with both eyes open and have never had an issue with it. But for people like my husband, this was like music to his ears. His grouping went from scattered to controlled and tight in less than an hour of range time.

    Practice keeping your eyes open as long as possible, and when you get ready to make the shots, close one eye, focus on your front sight, shoot, recover, open your eyes and look around.

    If that's what it takes, work with it.

    People are going to preach about peripheral vision and that's fine. I think it's important to see as much as possible around you, but we can also only worry about one threat at a time.

    If you are engaging a man with a knife and see movement to your left (or right) through your peripheral vision, well, you still have to take care of the man with the knife. Yes, the movement could be a man with a gun, but it also could be a kid on a bicycle, take care of the threat you KNOW to be a threat (even if it's just one shot while you move to position yourself to better assess the movement you saw) and then move on to check out what else could be around. If you close your eye only long enough to sight and shoot, if you are shooting to your potential, your eye will only be closed for about as long as it takes you to blink if not less. If that means you will make more effective shots. I'd be willing to close my eye for that length of time.

    Anyway, moving on.

    As far as making those speedy follow up shots, well, that's another battle.

    This is something that has been plaguing me. My goal has been to make three shots under a second and have them all be within the size of a quarter.

    My husband thinks I'm ambitious, but I'm determined.

    Recoil is/was the big thing. I shoot a .45. It has a lot of recoil, and I'm a little girl, but I'm done with people telling me I can't do something or look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them what I want to be able to do with my .45.

    The instructor didn't look at me like I was crazy, he didn't even flinch when he realized the caliber of the gun I was carrying.

    He just grabbed a hold of my hands, pulled them straight out, pushed my shoulders forward and said, "If you are going to be wielding that kind of firepower you are going to have to get behind it and learn how to control it."

    Step one was a VERY HIGH grip. Higher than I'd ever held my gun before. Right thumb on top of the thumb safety at all times, left hand high with my left thumb also resting on the slide. At first I thought this was too high and uncomfortable, but when I saw and felt the superior control of my gun I was converted.

    Also, I learned that previously, my left hand on my gun was nothing more than window dressing. I wasn't holding on with my left hand, only really just resting it there. When I learned to get control of my gun with BOTH hands, I found that I could make follow-up shots significantly faster.

    The third thing was sight alignment and picture.

    Our instructor made us all laugh when he said, "Every religion has its god and the god of the shooter is the front sight."

    He then drew a picture of a front sight post on the chalk board and started bowing to it which was rather comical.

    While point shooting is used in many situations and can't be discredited, the overwhelming opinion is that if you can see your sights.. USE THEM!

    Once you put your finger on your trigger your focus should be on your front sight and you shouldn't look away from it until your finger is off the trigger again.

    You will always hit what you are aiming at.. ALWAYS. When someone says they "missed" what they are really saying is that they pressed the trigger while their sights were not on what they intended to hit. If you are watching your sights ALWAYS, and you don't pull that trigger again until you have visually confirmed that they are back on target, you will be amazed at the kind of groups you will get.

    A friend of mine once scolded me for this very thing. I was doing "double-taps" and I came out with a decent target but for one stray hole in the bottom left of the target. I showed it to my friend and he pointed to that hole and said, "What's this?" I said, "Yeah, I know. I was off."

    He looked at me and said, "Then why did you pull the trigger?"

    It was one of the greatest shooting lessons I have ever gotten... EVER.

    Watch your front sight as you press the trigger. Watch it during the recoil. Watch it as it come back to rest on the target, and them pull the trigger again once it's confirmed it is where it belongs.

    After that, just do it faster.

    I'm still nowhere near my goal. I couldn't tell you how fast my follow up shots are without a timer, but I KNOW they are MUCH faster then they have ever been previously and my accuracy is still pretty darned good (if I may say so myself).

    I will never presume I've arrived anywhere or discredit anything that other people have said, but from one gal trying to do fast shooting, to another, this is what I've found to help me significantly and I hope it helps you too.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    lima- your my hero.
    seriously though- that is exactly what i needed to hear. thank you

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