Shoot 'Til He Drops?

This is a discussion on Shoot 'Til He Drops? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This was the title of an interesting article in the 2005 August issue of Combat Handguns . The subtitle is "A hard look at a ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Shoot 'Til He Drops?

  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669

    Shoot 'Til He Drops?

    This was the title of an interesting article in the 2005 August issue of Combat Handguns. The subtitle is "A hard look at a dangerous concept!" and was written by Chuck Taylor.

    As suggested by the title and sub title, the article addresses the tactics that are available when the first two shots don't work. I thought it was a very good article. I don't normally rely on gun mags for training advice, but this particular article agrees with training and tactical advice I learned at Gunsite.

    It's worth reading.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Haven't seen this yet but would tend to say ''Shoot 'til he stops''. Meaning stops any aggression - tho indeed chances are ''drop'' will be a consequence.

    I wonder how many of us if faced with the extreme of situations would fire two and wait to assess? The luxury of thinking time would never be very likely and I daresay we would be getting into multiples before really seeing whether the threat had been properly negated.

    I don't take this mag regularly but may try and dig one out.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #3
    DC Founder
    Array Bumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    20,045
    I really like Combat Handguns. I don't have a subscription but I do pick it up frequently at the newstand. Having not read the article in question, I can't really comment, but I agree with P95 on shooting until the agression is stopped. Dropping will certainly happen.
    Bumper
    Coimhťad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  5. #4
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    Hmmm, I may have misled you a bit; it's not really about shooting 'til they drop; it's more about makin'em drop as fast as possible.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Commiechusetts
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Hmmm, I may have misled you a bit; it's not really about shooting 'til they drop; it's more about makin'em drop as fast as possible.
    And how are these two interpretations at odds with each other?? Sounds like one and the same to me.

  7. #6
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Actually I still think for me emphasis has to be on STOP! Point being - you may hit the BG in the leg and he goes down - but he is still armed and still shooting!

    If therefore he is on the the ground - technically ''dropped'', the threat may very well not have gone away.!!

    For me a threat must be stopped and seen to be stopped.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Away - Health Problems
    Posts
    17,353
    It was a good article i read it more on making him stop than drop as said just cause he drops from a leg shot dont mean he cant still shoot you

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,843
    Just a thought that you guys gave me. A great thread would be ..... to shoot---or not to shoot,the BG after he,she,they,HIT THE GROUND. Of course if they was still slinging lead,I'd still be shootin'. BUT-------

  10. #9
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    RSSZ - bottom line has to be - THREAT - so if that still exists then whether a guy is on two feet, two knees or flat on his butt - we still have the two key words in play - THREAT (exists) & (need to) STOP.

    There seems to be an old ''honor'' feeling perhaps that once a guy has dropped, it has to be seen as ''chivalrous'' per ''old school'' to cease fire. ''Don't a shoot a man when he's down'' etc. If indeed threat has ceased, reliably ceased, then for sure it is not gonna be too good after the event to try and explain ''x'' more shots fired for good measure!!!

    Otherwise - continued threat from any position - game on!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bob from Southern New Hampshire
    Posts
    4,582
    I've been trained in the "Two to the Center Mass, and a third to the head" (The third round just in case they're still coming in my direction) Personally, I haven't seen anybody that has survived that third round. Puts the "lights out" for sure.

  12. #11
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,669
    For the benefit of those who won't get to read the article, the article addresses current methods that are taught to stop a threat if two COM hits donít work.

    According to the article, four methods are broadly taught as possible solutions when two COM shots donít work. One is to continue shooting the COM; another is to shoot the pelvis; another is to shoot the femur or the femoral artery; and the last is to shoot the head.

    The focus of the article is that rapid incapacitation is needed, and shooting them Ďtil they drop can take too much time and may be ineffective. For example, continuing to shoot the COM shots may prove fatal, but not in time to effectively stop the attack. Another example would be a femur or pelvis shot that takes the attacker down, but doesnít incapacitate him so he can still return fire.

    The article considers the pros and cons of the various methods and strongly recommends one particular tactic. Itís the same thing Gunsite teaches by the way. Itís a good read guys, makes you think about how you want to train.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bob from Southern New Hampshire
    Posts
    4,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    For the benefit of those who won't get to read the article, the article addresses current methods that are taught to stop a threat if two COM hits donít work.

    According to the article, four methods are broadly taught as possible solutions when two COM shots donít work. One is to continue shooting the COM; another is to shoot the pelvis; another is to shoot the femur or the femoral artery; and the last is to shoot the head.

    The focus of the article is that rapid incapacitation is needed, and shooting them Ďtil they drop can take too much time and may be ineffective. For example, continuing to shoot the COM shots may prove fatal, but not in time to effectively stop the attack. Another example would be a femur or pelvis shot that takes the attacker down, but doesnít incapacitate him so he can still return fire.

    The article considers the pros and cons of the various methods and strongly recommends one particular tactic. Itís the same thing Gunsite teaches by the way. Itís a good read guys, makes you think about how you want to train.
    Personally, my theory is to limit the number of rounds expended, thus ending the confrontation early as possible. The second is to use the least amount of rounds possible to end the threat, period. Third is to limit the amount of rounds that may miss the aggressor, yes, we DO miss, in the heat of the battle, and Innocents may be in the vicinity of the altercation.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Richmond VA
    Posts
    1,068
    In my experience, shots to the pelvis only disable in theory, unless the shot is lucky at actually hits and destroys the hip joint. I've seen several shots to the pelvis, none disabling, most through-and-through. Most caused organ damage that required surgery.

    I would think that under the stress of a real shooting, that trying to take out the femur or femoral artery would be difficult, at best.

    Haven't seen the August issue, yet. I'll be looking for it.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  15. #14
    Member Array Q-ball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    208
    I don't see anything wrong with shooting two to three times COM and then bringing the sights up to the enemys face. If you see his face in your sights, let em have it. I think this is faster than the Mozambique drill of two to the chest, gun to low ready and assess (I think that's how it goes).
    Why bring the weapon down just to jerk it back up to head level when it's a shorter distance to bring the weapon from COM to head shot. If the heads not there, don't shoot (obviously) and if it is, shoot. I don't think I want to fool around with pelvic shots if the other guy is shooting back.
    Seek safety at the heart of danger.

    Live Easy, Die Hard

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bob from Southern New Hampshire
    Posts
    4,582
    2 or 3 to the COM is good, but if the agressor hasn't stopped by then <and you believe he's wearing body armor> as some BGs do now-a-days, then one final round to the head will put out the power for sure. Pelvic/ hip shots are good for disabling your opponent, but when it comes down to life or death decisions, I'm gonna stick with a "lights out" shot

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Contacts & Eye drops?
    By ArmyCop in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: November 7th, 2010, 01:30 PM
  2. WV adds LA and DE drops VA
    By Gary Slider in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: November 19th, 2008, 07:48 PM
  3. Vickers drops NH
    By OD* in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: November 4th, 2007, 12:39 PM
  4. LEO drops his guard
    By titleist in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: July 2nd, 2007, 03:37 PM
  5. FBI Concerning One Shot Drops
    By QKShooter in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 16th, 2005, 12:37 AM

Search tags for this page

femoral artery
,

stu nakamura

Click on a term to search for related topics.