Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

This is a discussion on Are you a guncentric student or instructor? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lets see a head count how many members [ students or trainers ] that are "gun" people with "tens" or "hundreds" hours in firearm courses ...

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Thread: Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

  1. #1
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    Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

    Lets see a head count how many members [ students or trainers ] that are "gun" people with "tens" or "hundreds" hours in firearm courses have also attended professional "courses" in H2H, stick/double stick, defensive knife, flexible weapons training. Not dojo time, but specifically trained in that particular venue by a recognized trainer in that area of expertise.

    As a student since graduating HS in 1969, I've spent in excess of 200 hrs in basic and high level professional rifle/and or sniper/counter sniper courses; in excess of 275 hrs in basic and advanced handgun courses; in excess of 180 hours in defensive/offensive edged weapons courses; perhaps 50 hours in double and single stick courses; and maybe 30 hours on flexible weapons like bandanas, bull whips etc.

    The instructors were all in the top percentile of their respective fields. USMC, HK swat; HK sniper/countersniper; Bobby Lamar McDaniel [ Lucky McDaniel ] Mitch WerBell III; James Keating of Comtech; Mike Janich; US Army special forces trainers.

    As a trainer presently in advanced handgun and rifle threat focused skills, I also train people regularly in H2H, defensive knife including a 3 year stint working for the S+W academy as their adjunct defensive edged weapons instructor to law enforcement and the average "joe citizen/ccw carrier"; and stick work.

    If you don't have at least the same ability to potentially defend yourself with stick/knife/flexibles/H2H skills as your handgun skills you may be lacking in being "well rounded" and thus really capable of handling situations that arise in our daily lives.

    As a firearms trainer, with a long well thought out and rounded background in using other "tools" over the last 30 years, I'm fairly capable of demonstrating skills that can be used to create the "time and distance" to get to the firearm I may be carrying. It would seem very important to know these types of skills when working on our pistol FoF skills would it not?

    How many members, being ocassional or regular students of firearms, whether rifle or pistol have also spent the time and energy to be well rounded in their H2H skills and well as defensive knife skills? Law enforcement will run into those with knives about 8 times more than those with a gun on the streets [ which means we ccw carriers suffer the same possibility ].

    In defensive knife skills, of extreme importance would be the unarmed against the blade attack long before your edged weapon would come into play you may be carrying. These H2H/unarmed against a knife defensive skills have to be ingrained to the subconscious to be able to "protect the core" and create the time and distance to get to a weapon we have on our person.

    I hear the term "well rounded" thrown about by some people all the time, yet I wonder if they are truly well rounded or are they guncentric in their learning how to survive encounters on the streets.

    To be well rounded to me has always meant you are extremely well versed in other weapons platforms and H2H skills [ and spent the resources/money as well as the time to attend high level training venues by recognized professionals in their respective fields ]. How many actually have taken the time to learn to truly be "well rounded" and not guncentric.

    Something everyone should seriously consider. How many hours have you dedicated to H2H, stick, knife etc in relation to your firearms skills?

    Are you truly a well rounded "warrior spirit" or really just guncentric?

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; November 24th, 2007 at 06:13 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor


  2. #2
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    With tongue in cheek...

    I'm over 50 so I qualify as well rounded.
    I own a gun so I do not have to roll around with 20something year olds.
    My warrior spirit left the resevation many moons ago.
    Uhhhra...

  3. #3
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    GBS,

    Just turned 56 this month, getting a little well rounded myself lately

    Unfortunately, we may not have a choice but to roll around with the 20 somethings and need skill to be able to create time and distance to deploy a "tool" of some kind.

    Just last Sunday I held a H2H class for 4 people for 8 hours [ 7 hours of training ] in Anthem, Az. Not one of them was over the age of 30. Came home more than sore as hell, but so did they. Which brings up another question that segways into the original post:

    How many have trained/practiced any H2H, stick, defensive unarmed and armed knife in the last week---------month----------year? I put in at least 10-16 hours a month on H2H on the back porch with students [ two hours at a time ], at least that in defensive edged weapons and move the sticks at least a few hours a month. At the end of the H2H and defensive edged weapons training, I let the students go full bore with no preset attack sequence, just the old "Come and get some" Thats the time I get to stay on the edge of my own skills, in real time at full speed.

    Maintaining the skills you are given is as important getting the skills themselves.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  4. #4
    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
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    This thread really took off and covered a lot of good ground over at THR:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=318749

  5. #5
    Member Array Arkhangel's Avatar
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    I would say I am more guncentric these days. I dont do h2h anymore and havent since I started training with a gun/rifle. It is an area I would like to augment but time is a BIG factor for me.

    SY

  6. #6
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    all of those courses are generally too expensive for me. besides the free training the military has given me, i just go shootin and have fun. i used to take martial arts courses, but since i started carrying, the 2 really aren't compatible.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  7. #7
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    all of those courses are generally too expensive for me. besides the free training the military has given me, i just go shootin and have fun. i used to take martial arts courses, but since i started carrying, the 2 really aren't compatible.
    I would beg to disagree.

    I think all of us should at least learn target points at ways to break an attack. Someday you may need to fight someone off of you to get to your gun.

    The first sign that many folks get, when being assaulted, is being blind-sided.

    A few of my friends and associates have had to punch someone back just to get them off so they could get out their gun.

    It really is something to think about.

    Conversely, how many of us practice getting out our guns from a position of disadvantage?

    Life doesn't always happen on the square range. You need to learn to fight standing, sitting, kneeling, on your stomach and on your back because you never know when you are going to wind up there. When I say "fight" I mean with hands, sticks, knives, guns, weapons of opportunity, whatever.


    Thanks for the discussion, Brownie.
    Deputy Director of Training
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    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

  8. #8
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    I think all of us should at least learn target points at ways to break an attack.

    I did a 7 hour H2H womens self defense course two weeks ago in Anthem, Az for one of my ITFTS pistol students wife, cousin, and his wifes friends that concentrated solely on "breaking away" [ with damage done to the perp ] skills. Specifc target points were worked extensively, to very good effect [ on me ] and I came away damaged pretty good while they "moved along".

    Very good point Troy.

    Thanks for the discussion, Brownie.

    You are welcome sir. It bothers me to think that so many we see on the gun forums don't seek to be more well rounded with our hand skills as well as basics in stick, knife, etc.. The unconventional weapons we have around us all day and few recognize for what they can be as well.

    Thought this thread might get others to reconsider buying that next gun or two for some "other" skills that are as essential [ or even more essential ] than just the guns.

    Browie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  9. #9
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    There are many training organizations that live "the way of the gun" and not much else. I know, I've trained with many of them.

    And then there are the companies that offer everything from rape prevention to OC/Baton to full on PSD Counter Assault.

    They are few, but the training community is coming around slowly but surely.

    The key is to develop a training plan that fits you lifestyle and abilities. In conjunction with that folks need to think about what they would do for a given scenario, some call if the "what if" game and some call it "wargaming". Either way it is a techniques used by top professionals so it is good for the private citizen.

    Many, if not all of us carry guns. But nothing is ever as simple as drawing your gun and yelling "STOP!".

    We need to think about it and train for it.
    Deputy Director of Training
    LMSDefense
    www.lmsdefense.com
    troyprice@lmsdefense.com

    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

  10. #10
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    BTTT,

    Lets see some more responses and thoughts on this subject people. There are hundreds of members here who carry guns, and 4 people have responded to this thread.

    There's certainly got to be more members with opinions on whether being guncentric is problematic in their own lives and whether their own H2H skills are sufficent to fight to the gun they carry if physically attacked.

    What training, if any, have you got in H2h skills to compliment those guns skills every one tries to be proficient at? Do you think it's important to have the skills to be able to fight to the gun on your waist if you are physically capable of doing so, have you even considered the importance of the H2H skills in conjunction with your gun skills in the past?

    What are you presently doing to increase those skills if anything?

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  11. #11
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    I think some level of H2H is more important than your gun stuff. I understand that everyone is not 23 years old and can benh press double their body weight... but you dont have to. Learn the right stuff and the smallest or weakest of people can be very effective.
    I also think that before people go buy 20 different kinds of guns or even just one, they need to get schooled on the use of it. Its a personal responsibility thing IMO.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I definately don't think that guncentricism (can I make up words?) is a problem for me. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means but I do feel that I've got a good blend of the main areas (gun, edged & impact weapons, empty-hand).
    My primary training goals are to get more handgun and edged/impact weapons instruction as those are the two areas where I've had the least amount of formal instruction. I'd guess about 50 hours of handgun, and 20ish hours of knife over the past couple of years.
    As far as H2H, I've got probably 30-40 hours of "seminar" time and 2-3 thousand hours of dojo and small group sessions over the last 5 years or so. I continue to train and I also teach a "practical self-defense" class once a week.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    If you don't have at least the same ability to potentially defend yourself with stick/knife/flexibles/H2H skills as your handgun skills you may be lacking in being "well rounded" and thus really capable of handling situations that arise in our daily lives.

    Brownie
    So true. As LEO I am very gun oriented but I have a lot of time training in h2h. The use of pain compliance and verbal judo has been the most effective tool I have used on the street. I have shut down a lot of situations before they have escalated.

    Being well rounded is essential
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  14. #14
    Member Array KevinInstructor's Avatar
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    What I believe it is essential in the world of teaching self-defense is many hours of schooling, countless hours of practice before even considering moving up to the level of teacher. After the hours of training there is a great deal of effort in designing a class followed by hours of preparation for actually doing a class. It is not cheap, that is for darn sure.

    I have spent several hundred hours in various classes and countless hours honing and perfecting the skills needed to teach and know full well that every time I teach that I learn from my students and perfect my teaching skills.
    Stay Safe,
    Kevin

    CSSDSD Instructor
    ASP Instructor
    ACCJT Certified LEO DT Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  15. #15
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    I definately don't think that guncentricism (can I make up words?) is a problem for me.

    Is that described as Of, or pertaining to the conscious thought of being guncentric ?It sounds like a serious affliction to me

    I like it KenpoTex

    Lets hear from some other members on their thoughts on the potential problems associated with the guncentric mindset [ those who have purposely trained exclusively in being able to solve their future SD problems with the gun ]

    What are the pitfalls of developing a guncentric mindset to the exclusion of other SD skills such as the blades, H2h and stick training. I know far too many people who are in this category who suffer their fate for lack of forethought in this subject.

    FoF training requires skills other than using the gun. From contact to arms distance and perhaps just beyond these ranges, the gun is not the solution initially. In watching some of the FoF AAR's from other trainers, it's clear they either don't cover this range/distance in detail, potentially for a few reasons:

    They don't have superior H2H skills which are necessary at the ECQ distances to control and create time and distance to be able to get to the gun or

    They are guncentric in their thought process and consequently have to train others to move for the sake of movement itself in order to try to gain time and distance to get to the gun which in most instances in close would be the less effective to one who had good H2h skills to control the BG physically from being able to draw his own gun [ foul the draw and take them out with those same H2h skills ]

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; December 22nd, 2007 at 09:49 PM.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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