Why Israeli Draw?

This is a discussion on Why Israeli Draw? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I bumped into this Krav Maga video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI (fast forward to 3:00 if you want to see the firearms training) I was wondering ...

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Thread: Why Israeli Draw?

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    Member Array credy's Avatar
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    Why Israeli Draw?

    I bumped into this Krav Maga video on youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI

    (fast forward to 3:00 if you want to see the firearms training)

    I was wondering if any one knows why they do this? It doesn't seem like it serves any purpose except slow down the draw.

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    Low quality handguns, with risk of AD when one is in the pipe.

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    From Wikipedia:

    The "Israeli Method" is a point shooting system devised by the Israel Defense Force (IDF) for use in training personnel to use rifles, submachineguns, and handguns.

    In its initial stages of training, it closely resembles the Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate (FSA) method described above. In later stages, training in the rapid acquisition of the sights is taught, as well as a more advanced method of pointshooting.

    In the United States and Canada, the term "Israeli Method" is generally believed to refer to the carrying of a semiautomatic pistol with its chamber empty. However, the carrying of the chamber empty served a safety consideration, rather than a tactical consideration. In past decades, due to severe budget constraints, IDF purchased and issued large quantities of antiquated sidearms, the mechanical safety of which was questionable. In recent decades, as budget concerns are increasingly alleviated and more modern, standardized sidearms are issued, this mode of carry is increasingly being phased out. It should also be noted that specialized personnel, such as police and special forces units, have typically carried newer and safer firearms, and have rarely used this mode of carry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting
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    The israeli method of 'draw/rack/shoot' is just as fast as drawing a weapon with a rd in the chamber when drawing from the strong side...

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    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSal View Post
    The israeli method of 'draw/rack/shoot' is just as fast as drawing a weapon with a rd in the chamber when drawing from the strong side...
    How is that? your adding a step, plus your assuming the off hand free. I don't see an advantage, just one more thing to turn a good pistol into a badly designed club when the shtf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSal View Post
    The israeli method of 'draw/rack/shoot' is just as fast as drawing a weapon with a rd in the chamber when drawing from the strong side...

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    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe R View Post
    Have you actually seen the draw? A lot of poeple in dangerous neighborhoods of the world over the decades have carried this way and prevailed.

    For people here and now, it drastically reduces the chance of an ND by cutting way down on your administrative handling.

    It's just an option; for some, it works.

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    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhinokrk View Post
    How is that? your adding a step, plus your assuming the off hand free. I don't see an advantage, just one more thing to turn a good pistol into a badly designed club when the shtf.
    The off hand is usually free. In any event, you are trained to rack one handed, aren't you? The number of DGU events where a small fraction of a second of draw time is THE dealbreaker is not very high. Self defense shootings are generally not Wild West quick draw affairs.

    When people get involved in guns for a while, they tend to narrow their focus and see everything through the exclusive lens of gunfighting. But that's confusing means with ends. The purpose of carrying a gun is not to win gunfights. That's a means to an end. The purpose of carrying a gun is to make you safer; the means is maybe a gunfight.

    But for every gunfight you're probably not going to be in, you'll do thousands of administrative handlings (load, unload, reholster, put in the safe, etc etc etc). Every one of them is a chance of an ND. So the proper risk assessment is not to look only at gunfights, but at the entirety of your risks.

    Carrying chamber empty is simply reassigning risk: you're adding a small risk to some small subset of gunfights, but you're subtracting a real risk of NDs. It's a trade-off, like everything else. It's not for everyone, but then there is no one rule true for everyone either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    Have you actually seen the draw? A lot of poeple in dangerous neighborhoods of the world over the decades have carried this way and prevailed.

    For people here and now, it drastically reduces the chance of an ND by cutting way down on your administrative handling.

    It's just an option; for some, it works.
    I've seen Israeli's trained to carry that way and 'their' muscle memory serves them very well...very fast draw and shoot! Unless you have YOUR muscles trained to do that, you're going to lose time.

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    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I've seen Israeli's trained to carry that way and 'their' muscle memory serves them very well...very fast draw and shoot! Unless you have YOUR muscles trained to do that, you're going to lose time.
    Unless you practice, period, you're going to lose time.

    But even for a person relatively untrained in the Israeli Draw: with any practice at all, racking a handgun during the draw should take less than 1/2 a second, probably much less. But where you carry your gun, your holster choices, your clothes that day -- all these are elements that add a similar amount of time. Racking is conceptually no different that other carry choices that add a fleeting amount of time. Yet, for some reason, c/e carry is only thing people get wrapped around the axle over. Why is that?

    The entire DGU even will take seconds: you have to spot the risk, you have to break out of denial, you have to draw, you have to aim, you have to fire, and it'll then take some amount of time for the first round to take effect on the BG.

    From first instant of recognition to BG incapacitation is many seconds, let's say 5 seconds. The rack is at most 0.5 of a second; maybe 10% of the total time. For you to say that the rack was the dealbreaker is to say that you had 5 seconds and you won, but if you had to take 5.5 seconds, then you lose. I doubt anyone here can make such a claim that DGUs are that tightly scheduled.

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    Ex Member Array Joe R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    Carrying chamber empty is simply reassigning risk: you're adding a small risk to some small subset of gunfights, but you're subtracting a real risk of NDs. It's a trade-off, like everything else. It's not for everyone, but then there is no one rule true for everyone either.
    The only people who have a risk of NDs are those who are negligent in their handling of firearms. If one needs to carry with an empty chamber to prevent an ND, well, that says it all.

    Oh, and before I forget, carrying with an empty chamber adds one more failure mode to getting the gun into action.

    You're welcome to carrying an empty gun and whistle past the graveyard that it doesn't matter.

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    Remember folks that the "Israeli method " came about to meet a specific circumstance and demand and it did it well . In visiting with some folks who " were there " my take on the method is that it was formulated because when Israel was formed after WWII the fledgling state was faced with a variety of " cast off " weapons to include pistols from various sources with various designs . They were also faced with quickly providing training to virtually every adult in the country. Rather than teach each person a manual of arms for the pistol he had they came up with a " universal " manual of arms that will work with virtually any semi auto and taught it . It had an additional benefit in that unskilled and semiskilled folk were not handling a firearm that could be fired without a conscious and deliberate act of gross motor skills . It made sense at the time , and if i had to quickly train up a mass amount of folks under the same circumstances it would make sense today . However in todays real world it is little more than an interesting historical footnote as there are not only better and more effective techniques , but also the time to implement them .

    As an interesting aside ... Some of the instructors taught the students to cant the pistol towards the centerline of the body to rack the slide for a firmer grip . This may well have gone to Hollywood thro Israeli trained film consultants and then been morphed into the " gangbang " side shooting bs we see so much of today .. and then to the street. I have no facts to back that up , but have heard it discussed in some circles and it makes as much sense as any other explanation of the hold the pistol sideways bs that i have heard .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe R View Post
    The only people who have a risk of NDs are those who are negligent in their handling of firearms.
    That's a nice bumper sticker slogan, but fails in reality. In the real world -- which is much more complicated than any dogma -- many well-trained people have NDs. Police, instructors, even the occasional competitor...all have NDs from time to time. The inescapable bottom line is that all people are fallible. Any time you handle a loaded gun, there's a non-zero chance of something going wrong. That's a fact, and can't be hand-waved away.

    And of course there are circumstances where chamber-loaded is not healthy. If, for example, you had some routine where you have to unholster and reholster in your car every day. Reholstering inside a car is a terribly dangerous thing to do, no matter how careful you are.

    You're welcome to carrying an empty gun and whistle past the graveyard that it doesn't matter.
    This also fails the reality test. People make the mistake of viewing conventional wisdom as the universal rule of the world.

    The reality is:

    - for the first half of the 20th century, carrying semi-autos c/e was the norm, not the exception, and
    - many people, such as the Israelis and other places on the globe, carried c/e and managed rather well. Those were areas where you got into gunfights MUCH more frequently than we do here and now in the US.
    - and most of the time it won't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    It made sense at the time , and if i had to quickly train up a mass amount of folks under the same circumstances it would make sense today . However in todays real world it is little more than an interesting historical footnote as there are not only better and more effective techniques , but also the time to implement them .
    If it made sense then, why does it suddenly not make sense now? Just because there are other carry options does not somehow make this one invalid. It's safe, effective, and low maintenance. It does offer ND reduction. There is no "right" answer. Everyone has to make his own personal risk assessment. Some people with some cirumstances might go c/e. It's a valid option.

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    Although I dont really like the Israeli method, it would be foolish to think they dont know what they are doing. They tend to put out some great gun fighters, and they have come up with a lot of the techniques we use everyday.
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