Huh? (aka: How to Train?)

This is a discussion on Huh? (aka: How to Train?) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, when it comes down to it, I typically revert to "shotgun" vision. By that I mean: focusing on the bird and not the bead, ...

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Thread: Huh? (aka: How to Train?)

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Well, when it comes down to it, I typically revert to "shotgun" vision. By that I mean: focusing on the bird and not the bead, in which the target is crystal clear and the front bead/sight is fuzzy. When wingshooting, you simply cannot take your eye off the target, else you'll invariably fall "behind" the tracking ... and ultimately miss.

    I think of it this way ... Take your weapon out of the equation for a moment. Take football, soccer or other fast-moving sport you can think of. Using your finger, try pointing at one specific person on the field, no matter how he/she moves or jinks or reverses. Pretty easy, when it comes right to it. Or, if you prefer, think about the last time you played "catch" with a baseball, in that even without sights, as such, you knew basically what the correct aim was.

    In all these cases, the mind, eye and finger pretty much know what to do. Same thing with a shotgun, when leading a fast-moving bird. And, so far as I've found, paintball and similar "shooting" games aren't all that different when aiming at scurrying human targets.

    So. What's actually best when an actual firearm-on-human encounter is the scenario? Shouldn't be much different.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 22nd, 2007 at 05:46 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #17
    Member Array KevinInstructor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The real eye opener comes when someone is shooting at you.

    The only way to safely do that is with Simunitions. That is how you learn what works and what doesnt. At the less than 7 yard range that is typically encountered,you need to be very quick and accurate. If you are behind a car door shooting at someone 20 or 30 yards away, the technique will be much different.

    Its very educational and I think the best practice you can get that mimicks the real thing...minus the blood and guts..
    We did Simunitions at LFI IV, pretty much spent the entire day running thru a police training center doing house clearing which is an excellent method to train under stress.

    I remember the first few times thru the adrenaline rush especially heavy breathing magnified from the protective helmet. What I found interesting is that the company will only certify to train are police, seems that they do not trust civilian instructors. In one way I can understand that but think if they opened it up to civilian trainers with specific requirements it would work, heck they already have an insurance clause in there that protect the company.
    Stay Safe,
    Kevin

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  4. #18
    Member Array Linda's Avatar
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    What a fantastic thread!!!

    Only thing I can add for Mel is...,find an outdoor range to practice at. An indoor range is so limiting in what you can do. Standing in front of paper and punching holes in it is not realistic training. It's OK for the beginner shooter to get to know their weapon, learn the sight picture, learn the breathing techniques, etc., but it is so far from reality training.

    You need to learn to move and shoot, point shoot, both strong and weak one handed shooting, multiple threat shooting, ground shooting, holster draws, etc. None of which you can do indoors.

    Take more training classes. I truly feel that at the very minimum everyone should take at least one advanced training class a year. More would be better. Practice, practice, practice.....and then go practice some more.

    Buy yourself a blue gun (inert) or an airsoft, or similiar, in the same model as your carry gun. Practice with someone else in simulated attack situations. Practice stepping off the mark..........MOVE!!! This type of training is invaluable!!!

    As a concealed carry instructor, I try to impress upon my students the NEED for additional training. The scariest thought for me as a civilian walking around is that all of these people have gotten their CCW licenses/permits, strapped a gun onto their sides, and never practice or train. The scariest thought as an instructor is that one day one of my students will get in a bad situation and not know how to react. I don't want to have to go to court and testify for or against one of my students one day. Or worse yet, go to their funeral.

    Stay safe out there. It's a dangerous world and it isn't getting any better!
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda View Post

    As a concealed carry instructor, I try to impress upon my students the NEED for additional training. The scariest thought for me as a civilian walking around is that all of these people have gotten their CCW licenses/permits, strapped a gun onto their sides, and never practice or train. The scariest thought as an instructor is that one day one of my students will get in a bad situation and not know how to react. I don't want to have to go to court and testify for or against one of my students one day. Or worse yet, go to their funeral.
    This is the exact reason why I dont do CCW classes anymore, and I'm not a fan of the ccw "training". To many people think they can take the state course and are ready to hit the street. Thats like thinking you can take drivers ed and pass the BMV test and your ready for the NASCAR circuit.
    I cant stress Linda's point enough, people need to get this through their thick skulls.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    To many people think they can take the state course and are ready to hit the street.
    There is reading, then there's studying. The are courses to be taken, and then there's training. It's one piece of the puzzle and, as with becoming a NASCAR driver or expert at anything else, it takes some doing. Most folks will never approach anything like professional proficiency at a task. Still, to the extent quality training helps rewire one's awareness, reaction abilities, focus, determination and some skills with weaponry and tactics, it can be a good thing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #21
    Member Array czydj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I cant stress Linda's point enough, people need to get this through their thick skulls.
    thick skulls?

    Would you say most of the CCW's are trying to do the right thing? Why would they have spent the $$$ to get licensed if they weren't? Perhaps y'all "in the know" with these super developed skills need to point out the benefits and availability of this extremely beneficial training. Encourage folks and help them find the training. Don't beat 'em up!

    I've been looking for classes in the SE and haven't seen much training that is applicable to the layman. A lot of what I've found applies to SWAT, LE, and Blackwater types. Those classes could be intimidating and not directed at developing the necessary skill sets of the homemaker or 9 to 5 rat-racer...

    As always, JMHO... YMMV... HTH... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by czydj View Post
    thick skulls?

    Would you say most of the CCW's are trying to do the right thing? Why would they have spent the $$$ to get licensed if they weren't? Perhaps y'all "in the know" with these super developed skills need to point out the benefits and availability of this extremely beneficial training. Encourage folks and help them find the training. Don't beat 'em up!

    I've been looking for classes in the SE and haven't seen much training that is applicable to the layman. A lot of what I've found applies to SWAT, LE, and Blackwater types. Those classes could be intimidating and not directed at developing the necessary skill sets of the homemaker or 9 to 5 rat-racer...

    As always, JMHO... YMMV... HTH... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

    I include myself in the thick skull crowd. Dont get to upset over that comment, you need some thicker skin to go along with the skull. I was just commenting on how this very topic is pounded and pounded into newbs heads, but it only gets through to a small amount of people.
    There is lots of obvious benefits from taking any extra training beyond your states requirement. Each class you take will send you home with another tool or tools to use. There are plenty of ways to skin the proverbial cat, its up to you to find the way that works for you in the given situation.
    Getting licensed should be about the third or fourth step in the process, not the first.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #23
    Member Array czydj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I was just commenting on how this very topic is pounded and pounded into newbs heads, but it only gets through to a small amount of people.
    A good teacher teaches and the students hardly know they are learning... All I'm saying is I see a lot of newbie bashing and not enough tactful leading of the horse to water.

  10. #24
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    nobody is bashing newbs at all. I'd love to lead you to the water, but I dont know where your pond is. Its up to you to seek out what you need. We can offer guidance and advice, thats about it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by czydj View Post
    thick skulls?

    Would you say most of the CCW's are trying to do the right thing? Why would they have spent the $$$ to get licensed if they weren't? Perhaps y'all "in the know" with these super developed skills need to point out the benefits and availability of this extremely beneficial training. Encourage folks and help them find the training. Don't beat 'em up!

    I've been looking for classes in the SE and haven't seen much training that is applicable to the layman. A lot of what I've found applies to SWAT, LE, and Blackwater types. Those classes could be intimidating and not directed at developing the necessary skill sets of the homemaker or 9 to 5 rat-racer...

    As always, JMHO... YMMV... HTH... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
    We are not trying to beat up the open minded.....but we tire of beating our heads against the wall of closed mindedness.

    Gun owners that "do not know what they do not know" are in the extreme vast majority. This lack of knowledge and understanding can be quite formidible.

    This is what I tell everyone,

    " As soon as you have the safety down pat, as soon as you have the fundamentals of keeping the gun running and hitting, as soon as you have a decent drawstroke from concealment.....get yourself some quality/professional force on force training. This will show you the realities of an armed encounter. This will set down your prioritise of what is the "most likely" skill sets that are needed. This will show you the direction that you need to go"

    BTW, I will be teaching a "Point Shooting Progressions" course in Hiwassee Georgia May 17-18. This is common sense training for the average civilian that wants a full understanding of the advanced concepts of an armed encounter. No dogmatics, just "git er done" type training.

  12. #26
    Member Array czydj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    We are not trying to beat up the open minded.....but we tire of beating our heads against the wall of closed mindedness.
    I wish you well in discerning which is which and hope you spend most of your time with the former... I'm trying to learn you can't disuade the un-persuadable. I'm hoping I can learn I'd be better off not to engage them in battle, but I'm thick skulled and that may take a while. FWIW, I only know of 1 man that can open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf... It sure isn't me!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    BTW, I will be teaching a "Point Shooting Progressions" course in Hiwassee Georgia May 17-18. This is common sense training for the average civilian that wants a full understanding of the advanced concepts of an armed encounter. No dogmatics, just "git er done" type training.
    Thanks for the lead on training! That is within my 1 day drive limit, I will look it up and see if I can make it. I still have a little 2007 training budget left that I need to release this year, so I hope I can get something booked before I lose it...

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    I wish you well in discerning which is which and hope you spend most of your time with the former... I'm trying to learn you can't disuade the un-persuadable. I'm hoping I can learn I'd be better off not to engage them in battle, but I'm thick skulled and that may take a while. FWIW, I only know of 1 man that can open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf... It sure isn't me!
    I do not try to convince anyone of anything anymore. In my mind the debates are over. Open minded, inclusive approaches, that are based on fluid concepts have replaced closed minded, exclusive approaches that are based on dogmatic techniques to anyone that matters in my eyes. I just give out solid, logical, and free information and let human nature take it's course.

    Since this thread is about point shooting here is one of those articles as an example.

    About As Concise As I Can Get

    I had someone ask me how you point shoot with a rifle recently. So instead of running down a bunch of techniques, I just explained the concept of point shooting. As Matt recently pointed out, point shooting is not so much a bunch of techniques as it is a simple fluid concept.

    This is about as concise as I get, while still explaining exactly what is done. The more that I think about it, the more that I like it. Here is what I wrote.

    ************************************************** *****

    Point shooting with a long arm is the exact same concept of point shooting with a handgun. The basics, all comes down to basic geometry. The advanced application, all comes down to hand/eye coordination that is the bi-product of the basic geometry.

    Basic Geometry

    Squaring up to the threat

    Shooting from your centerline

    Gun parallel to the ground

    These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly.

    But this is stance and grip dependent and does not bring out the real benefits of point shooting

    Advanced Application

    Is simply the hand/eye coordination that is a bi-product of the basic geometry.

    The centerline is replaced by the visual centerline. Meaning that where ever you look, if the gun is on your visual centerline, you have taken care of the "squaring up" and the "centerline" portion of the basic geometry. The vertical alignment is now taken care of.

    This leaves the horizontal alignment. The "parallel to the ground" is your "default." Hand/eye coordination is now a bi-product off of this known "default."

    Just focus on the desired point of impact and your mind, eyes, and body will make the adjustments to get the hits.

    It really is that simple!

    This covers from line of sight all the way to "from the hip".....and everything in between.

    Thanks for the lead on training! That is within my 1 day drive limit, I will look it up and see if I can make it. I still have a little 2007 training budget left that I need to release this year, so I hope I can get something booked before I lose it...

    A quick description of the course can be found here,

    http://www.suarezinternationalstore....ROD&ProdID=487

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Basic Geometry

    Squaring up to the threat

    Shooting from your centerline

    Gun parallel to the ground
    So, you are recommending a stance square to the target, instead of a Weaver stance (that I was taught in the military)? Also, then, presumably, both eyes open?

    I'd love to get out to one of your courses, but what's the deal? You guys have exactly 1 course in Florida in all of 2008? Can't say that I'm all that interested in Combat Medicine.

    Thanks.

    Mel
    Last edited by agentmel; December 22nd, 2007 at 04:58 PM. Reason: content
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmel View Post
    So, you are recommending a stance square to the target, instead of a Weaver stance (that I was taught in the military)? Also, then, presumably, both eyes open?

    I'd love to get out to one of your courses, but what's the deal? You guys have exactly 1 course in Florida in all of 2008? Can't say that I'm all that interested in Combat Medicine.

    Thanks.

    Mel
    What I teach is the ability "to get hits from any angle, from any position, through out your draw stroke, with whatever movement is necessary, while seeing what you need to see."

    There is no stance dependence inside of being truely well rounded. As there is no grip dependence, default draw stroke dpendence, type of movement dependence, or sighting method dependence. Since the situation of the fight is the dictating factor, being "dependent" on anything is a very bad idea.

    Squaring up to the threat is just part of the"basic geometry" of point shooting. This basic geometry is replaced by the advanced applications very quickly. Once you are using hand/eye coordination off of your visual centerline you are really in the best position to use fluid concepts where your mind is the weapon......not your pistol.

    Florida has been a rough market to get into. The problem is finding a range that will allow for the advanced training that we offer. If you are not just teaching "stand and deliver with sighted fire" courses you are not welcome on most of the Florida ranges. As soon as you get into reality based, combat proven concepts of dynamic movement, and threat focused skills, the Range curmundgeons want you to water down the curriculum to fit in with their idea of necessary NRA based firearms training. This type of training has proven very ineffective inside of force on force.

    We are always looking for hosts and I know a bunch of Floridians that will fill the classes. The problem with Florida is simply the people in charge of the ranges.

  16. #30
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by czydj View Post
    I've been looking for classes in the SE and haven't seen much training that is applicable to the layman. A lot of what I've found applies to SWAT, LE, and Blackwater types. Those classes could be intimidating and not directed at developing the necessary skill sets of the homemaker or 9 to 5 rat-racer...

    Where have you been looking?

    There are trainers all over the SE. I'm curious about the "9 to 5 rat-racer" comment. Here's what I'm talking about: I know of 6 different training organizations based in the SE, I know of a lot more that make the rounds in the SE. All of them teach a "Pistol 1" course. Most of them are two to three day courses and are perfect for the person who just bought their gun (or is thinking of buying one and wants to learn first) or just got their CCW permit and wants to learn.

    One of the problems is that some "laymen" equate using a handgun in their defense to shooting on the range. This just isn't so. In fights people ambush, move, yell, stab, and any matter of things to do you harm. Many training organizations try to teach skills to counter these things to their students such as shooting while moving, shooting in close contact retentions positions, and shooting from cover. It may seem highspeedtacticoolsuperninja, but it really isn't. Some also equate the background of the instructor to be the same as their target audience. I would tell people to contact the training organization and ask them if what they are teaching is skill level appropriate to the new CCW holder or the new shooter. Most times they will tell you it is fine for a new shooter, and if it isn't they'll tell you that also.

    I understand why someone would say "thick skulls". The American male believes he is born with the inherent ability to cook a steak, fix a car and shoot a gun. I have found out that all of these are acquired skills that must be practiced to be maintained. Many folks who take a CCW course think that the CCW course is all the training they will ever need.

    czydj,

    Tell me your geographic area and I'll give you a run down for the next six months, within a day's drive from you. In the next six months Larry Vickers, Pat Rogers, Rob Pincus , and of course LMS Defense are all teaching courses in the SE. And there are others I just need to look at my list to remember who, when, and where.
    Deputy Director of Training
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    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

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