The Challenge...

The Challenge...

This is a discussion on The Challenge... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Alright, we have updated “The Challenge” because people said it needed to be done from concealment and they were right. What is “The Challenge” you ...

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Thread: The Challenge...

  1. #1
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    The Challenge...

    Alright, we have updated “The Challenge” because people said it needed to be done from concealment and they were right.

    What is “The Challenge” you ask… well, it is simply a video clip we put together to see if you can draw and “shoot” (dry fire) before you get cut. Okay… you aren’t really going to get cut; the screen is going to turn red when the attacker cuts a stick that represents you.

    We deal with a lot of people who THINK they can get their gun out and use it in a fight. Truth of the matter is that things will happen MUCH faster than what you think it will. And, you won’t have as much time to react as you believe you will. Lateral movement is not the ideal direction of movement in a lot of situations because you would easily get cut and possibly even be taken out of the fight should you choose to move this direction.

    The purpose of the challenge is hopefully to get you to realize where your true skills are in regards to you reacting, drawing and shooting ONCE you have identified a potential threat.

    Going straight for your gun is not the answer in a lot of situations. So, do you think that you can perceive the attackers movement and identify a threat, draw, and shoot in less than one second AND hit your target AND take them immediately out of the fight? Well, of course we cannot tell you that you will or will not hit your target and take them immediately out of the fight. But that’s what would need to happen in order for you to stand the best chance of survival.

    We can only help you to realize whether or not you currently have the ability in a CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT to react, draw, and shoot before the attacker cuts you. After all, if you can’t do it “here”, then you won’t stand a chance at doing it in the real deal!!! Of course, there are far more variables in a real fight than we can present on a short video clip.

    So, if you dare, take “The Challenge”.
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Interesting videos! Personally, my "comfort space" is well beyond five feet, but I do agree with the 45 degree cushion maker! Nice job.

  3. #3
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Brian,

    Interesting videos. I took the challenge. The guy kept cutting the stick but I had already taken a step to left or right each time while drawing so I wasn't where I started when he made contact. Damn training...screws things up every time.

    In your comments you touch on something that your video failed to address but you commented on it without exploring it further. The subject was taking action ONCE you recognized the threat.

    What gets people hurt is not lacking the ability to draw and shoot in .58 seconds, what gets people hurt is not having the mental awareness to recognize a potential threat before it became a threat and taking action to minimalize it.

    I realize the man in the video was using movement as a distraction but he still had some very definitive body language which would have caused me to move away or put an obstacle between us.

    The ability to recognize a threat and mitigate it is infinitely more important than the ability to draw a gun and shoot fast. (Rob Pincus actually said that, not me)

    That being said, you are absolutely right. Realistic training is very important. Force on Force, Weapons, Empty Hand, Stick, and Knives are all important parts of a training program. Threat Recognition is one of the most important skills and to gain that you really need the proper mindset.
    Deputy Director of Training
    LMSDefense
    www.lmsdefense.com
    troyprice@lmsdefense.com

    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

  4. #4
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    The "man" in the video is yours truly. Yes, it is best IF you can recognize things ahead of time! But... a lot of people don't recognize the cues therefore they have no option other than to react!
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian@ITC View Post
    Going straight for your gun is not the answer in a lot of situations.
    Amen!

    Quote Originally Posted by right2defend.com
    Because a lot of firearms instructors are focused on using the gun to resolve the situation. And, because a large portion of instructors do not possess unarmed combat skills.
    ...then by default a large majority of CCW holders lack the ability to fight and defend with an empty hand skillset. Too many think that the gun is the cure all for self defense but that's the furthest from the truth, in close quarters it is dangerous to introduce a gun into the fight. A well defined h2h skillset and a proficiency in pain compliance is imperative (especially for LEO) and can terminate a threat quickly and safely.

    I applaud you for focusing on awareness for this type of training and providing it.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Price View Post
    Brian,

    Interesting videos. I took the challenge. The guy kept cutting the stick but I had already taken a step to left or right each time while drawing so I wasn't where I started when he made contact. Damn training...screws things up every time.

    In your comments you touch on something that your video failed to address but you commented on it without exploring it further. The subject was taking action ONCE you recognized the threat.
    +1
    Even though I felt that the movements of the threat were greatly exaggerated, my initial thoughts were to start backing off (yes, straight back, not at a 45 )and while having the strong side away (at least I got the side step right), start prepping for a draw if necessary (untuck my shirt...) Now weather or not I would pick up on someone doing that to my left or right is iffy. I would hope that either I pick up some unnatural movement out the peripheral vision or the "Spidey Senses" start a tingling.

    As for the rest of the videos...Crap, more training to work in. I may have to make this a part time job!

    The only thing I worry about is that while looking at this guy, I definitely feel threatened. His size (ability), expression (intent), build (ability), actions (intent), position (opportunity) = fear for my life, we have met the criteria but he has yet to display a weapon, I am not going to do so well in court for brandishing because criminals are winy little babies that will be the first to call the cops if you beat them to the punch. They know the rules (just like the Alkieda... can't shoot them if they drop their weapon or run away even though they just shot at our military or killed one) and use that to their advantage.

    Great info, thanks for posting!
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    +1
    Even though I felt that the movements of the threat were greatly exaggerated, my initial thoughts were to start backing off (yes, straight back, not at a 45 )
    Isn't that an esay way to get bowled over or trip under stress?
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    Isn't that an esay way to get bowled over or trip under stress?
    Yeah, hence the . My initial thoughts were incorrect, I should have been thinking away at a 45, not straight back.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    ... A well defined h2h skillset and a proficiency in pain compliance is imperative (especially for LEO) and can terminate a threat quickly and safely. ...
    I agree on having good fighting skillsets sans weapons that are not a part of one's person, aka hand to hand, is required. I hate the terms hand to hand or hands on. It is sooo non-realistic. Like, hey I'm going hands on. It is so sterile and absurd. Fighting for one's life with the weapons that make up our body parts (hands, elbows, knees, teeth, top of skull, etc. ...) is so ugly and so personal. It cannot be captured with a trite saying like "i'm going hands on"

    I do disagree about the pain compliance thing. I am not a leo. I have no requirements to use fine motor skills to force someone into pain so that they comply with my directive to stop trying to kill me. I will disengage at the first safe time I can disengage. Until then, I am going to poke, scream, bite, kick, knee, tear flesh, poke eyeballs, etc. ... until such time avails itself to me.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    I do disagree about the pain compliance thing. I am not a leo. I have no requirements to use fine motor skills to force someone into pain so that they comply with my directive to stop trying to kill me. I will disengage at the first safe time I can disengage. Until then, I am going to poke, scream, bite, kick, knee, tear flesh, poke eyeballs, etc. ... until such time avails itself to me.
    When properly applied pain compliance (I am trained in CDT) is easy to apply and highly effective using joint rotation and pressure points. It is not just applicable to LEO. The beauty is that you can control the subject absolutely. It is a much better option than the poke, scream, bite, kick, knee, tear flesh, poke eyeballs, etc. ... until such time avails itself methhod. A simple wristlock is devastating to the person it's applied to.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  11. #11
    Member Array Linda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Yeah, hence the . My initial thoughts were incorrect, I should have been thinking away at a 45, not straight back.
    Exactly!!
    If you are moving straight back, you are not moving off the bad guys target. It is very easy for him to keep sights on you. Moving off at an angle, he is needing to resight on you constantly, giving you the edge on retreat/cover/get the heck out of dodge...,
    Member of the National Rifle Association's Board of Directors
    www.BuckeyeFirearms.org Buckeye Firearms Association Central OH Chair
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    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian@ITC View Post
    The "man" in the video is yours truly. Yes, it is best IF you can recognize things ahead of time! But... a lot of people don't recognize the cues therefore they have no option other than to react!
    Combative skills to counter his attack until you can get your gun out would be a good skill-set to have.

    Brian, I did like the videos though.

    Now if a video game company would only come out with with an interactive combatives/shooting game with integrated dummies and guns instead of musical instruments.
    Deputy Director of Training
    LMSDefense
    www.lmsdefense.com
    troyprice@lmsdefense.com

    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    When properly applied pain compliance (I am trained in CDT) is easy to apply and highly effective using joint rotation and pressure points. It is not just applicable to LEO. The beauty is that you can control the subject absolutely. It is a much better option than the poke, scream, bite, kick, knee, tear flesh, poke eyeballs, etc. ... until such time avails itself methhod. A simple wristlock is devastating to the person it's applied to.
    The ugliness is that it takes fine motor skills and takes much more time to acquire / maintain the skills. IMO, it is a much worse option than the poke, poke, scream, bite, kick, knee, tear flesh, poke eyeballs, etc. ... A wristlock "may" be devastating, but it sure is hard to acquire when somebody is actively fighting against it.

    I am in martial arts and have been for 20 years. I've learned many joint locks, come alongs, etc. ... During any type of actual training, all that goes out the window when the opponent does not follow his "scripted role" as the joint lockee.

    Now, punches, gouges, etc.... always availabe.

    I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post

    I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
    I respect your opinion.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I'm just a big dumb sissy. If I saw someone acting even close to that odd, I'd be a quarter mile away and calling 911.

    I did play the game. Even if there is no room to move to the side or rear, he would get 1 slash and then three or more rounds through his COM. With no room to retreat and a guy like that already way too close, most folks would have their pistol out. Trapped like that, I would shout "I am armed - back off NOW!" Failure to comply quickly would not be a viable option for him.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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