Thumbs forward - why?

This is a discussion on Thumbs forward - why? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Having no formal training in hand gun shooting (other than safety), I greatly appreciate any and all info that I can get to increase my ...

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 79
Like Tree2Likes

Thread: Thumbs forward - why?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Having no formal training in hand gun shooting (other than safety), I greatly appreciate any and all info that I can get to increase my accuracy & speed.

    Is everything I read the be all and end all? No, I try it and if it works then I stick with it. If not, I go back to where I was before and keep moving forward.

    Those that already have training, or a system that works for them, then there is no reason to change it. I think is good that some of you try it, but there is no reason to say that it is incorrect, it just does not work for you.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #47
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Troy,

    I'm certainly not trying to drive you out of the conversation - I appreciate your input very much. I was just saying that this technique (as well as many, many others) derived from target shooting. That's only natural - people shoot a heck of a lot more paper than they do people, so that's where the majority of the experience lies.

    I didn't think you were.

    The thumb forward of the firing hand didn't come from target shooting. The M1911 was fielded in combat long before it was allowed in National Match. The mechanics of the gun left you no choice but to let the thumb of the firing hand forward. Col Cooper just took it further when he started advocating the two-hand grip.

    One of the problems with the internet is you don't have the ability to meet face to face and demonstrate techniques to show the pros and cons of each. I have seen instances where people were attempting to argue the same point but couldn't express themself in the virtual world.

    I explained my perspective and just didn't want to argue with anyone.

    With many folks that have little or no formal training and then spend years building a conditioned response, they are slow to change if at all. I don't have a problem with this but if you are training with me I'd like you try it.

    I was working with a student a few months ago who has shot nothing but Weaver for the last 30 years. While he made an attempt to try what we were teaching he kept reverting back to Weaver or what I like to call the "Isoco-Weaver". Instead of continuing to try to "fix" anything we decided to capitalize on what he was already doing and focus on fighting with the gun. You can't change 30 years of a conditioned response in one weekend.

    It took me 3 years to change from shooting "thumb over" Weaver to the way I shoot now.

    The reasons I changed? Speed, support, mechanics, etc. blah blah blah.

    To change, folks need to be willing to change or accept change rather than attepting to validate what they have been doing for the last however many years.

    I don't care how you hold the gun as long as you can instantly incapacitate the target from any range out to about 50 yards. There may come a time when that is the distance you need to fight from.

    And before any of you start jamming on me about the most common distances of gunfights I want you to research a few things - Tyler, Texas; Salt Lake City, and Colorado Springs.
    Last edited by Troy Price; January 17th, 2008 at 08:36 PM.
    Deputy Director of Training
    LMSDefense
    www.lmsdefense.com
    troyprice@lmsdefense.com

    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

  4. #48
    Member Array FRT007's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    48
    Wow. I 'triggered" quite a few responses. Thanks to all who replied.
    Last edited by FRT007; January 17th, 2008 at 10:10 AM. Reason: edited

  5. #49
    Member Array Tony Siciliano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Eastern NC
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Price View Post
    You guys are killing me.
    I said I was done.
    LOL. So, I guess I shouldn't bring up the "muscle memory" thing, then huh?
    Tony Siciliano
    Senior Instructor
    LMS Defense - East Coast
    tonysiciliano@lmsdefense.com
    www.lmsdefense.com
    Join us on the LMSD Forum

  6. #50
    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Siciliano View Post
    LOL. So, I guess I shouldn't bring up the "muscle memory" thing, then huh?

    Deputy Director of Training
    LMSDefense
    www.lmsdefense.com
    troyprice@lmsdefense.com

    It is not the ability to master the extraordinary that makes a warrior special; what makes a warrior special is the ability to master the basics extraordinarily well. - (author unknown)

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,108
    Weighing in on this, I can say that there are a lot of interesting views on this; In 1998, I was at a USPSA area championship and had squadded in with several members of the SPECWAR community who were there along with the Army Marksmanship unit. During our time together, I got to ask the guys various questions about what they thought of certain aspects of shooting as it applied to real life combat. They all unanimously agreed that aside from the unrealistic gaming tactics employed during IPSC matches, everything else, from stances, grips, reloads, etc pretty much followed what was currently being practiced by USPSA/IDPA shooters today. They also unanimously agreed that consistent practice habits vastly accelerated learning curves and made handling real life situations much easier. In the words of one Desert Storm veteran, "because of all the training we had prior to the war, the first time they engaged enemy soldiers up close for real it was like the tangos were all moving in slow motion, like a video game. we hit them so fast, many of them never even brought their weapons to bear".

    I have listened to guys like that ever since, and their opinions remain the same; Competition shooting techniques will be criticized for their lack of reality, or for use of a better term, their "gamer" origins, but the simple fact of the matter is, that they are an evolution in progress, that in our quest to develop the most physically economical technique possible to win a gun fight with the perfect balance of speed and accuracy it will always be tested in competition first, then its true worth will be proven on the street or the battlefield.

    As far as what I have found out from guys that have actually thrown lead in anger, the thumbs-forward technique seems to occupy the top slot for now....

    Especially since guys like Robbie Leatham and Todd Jarrett are training them.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NOVA...200 square miles surrounded by reality
    Posts
    3,214
    My .02

    For max control USPSA style grip thumbs forward does provide the most maximum support and control for both speed and accuracy.

    Actually if you just look at PHYSICS you can see the more meat of your hands supporting the COG (Center of Gravity) on the gun the more recoil will be absorbed by the shooter. The more your hands are off the gun(including thumbs crossed) the less control you have and the more of a FULCRUM effect you will create thus creating more muzzlerise then you would if you used thumbs forward. It maybe very minimal but it still is less.

    However, personal choice is personal choice.
    I have a friend on the Nation Coach Development Staff (shooting sports) basically they go around making shooting coaches for teams all the way up to the olympic level.

    He made a statement at the olympic training center in Colorado Springs Colorado while he was teaching a coach school.

    "There has never been a successful cross dominant shooter!"
    In the crowd was IIRC Launie Mily who stood up and said. I'm a two time Olympic Gold medalist in small bore rifle, and I'm a cross dominant shooter, does this mean that I'm not a good shooter?

    The next day the coach manual was changed!

    The point of this is good shooters have incorporated many differn't methods coming up with their own method that works best for them. Thus making them an olympian/bianchi champion/uspsa champion/IDPA grandmaster etc.....

    When you watch most of the tactical shooters who are winning matches or events. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, most of them are shooting thumbs forward for the above reasons.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array sheepdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    691
    I "learned" thumbs forward a few years ago, drifted away, and have gotten back to it. I do know a few things that apply to me: I was steering the gun with my right thumb (I'm a lefty). This caused problems I didn't even know I had. BTW, all my 1911s have flush slide stops on the right side-another problem, but for another thread. Second, if I get the grip just right, my right palm is all in contact with the grip, and the gun DOES NOT MOVE. To get the grip right, I have to keep my left thumb up (TDSA calls it "flagged thumb") until I'm going into the second part of the draw. This has made me able to activate the safety with the muzzle horizontal downrange instead of as the gun pivots up. I think this is a lot safer, don't know if it's on purpose or not. Last, and most important for me, when I do it all exactly right, I can actually track the front sight bouncing in the notch and returning to the same place like NOTHING I can replicate with my other grip. The first time I did this, I was stunned...the gun just fired and fell back on target as the trigger reset. Useful in IDPA, and I can't help but think that having the gun stay on target while firing would be even more useful in a real situation, even if I'm point shooting and not seeing the front sight. For me, the continued practice and learning with this grip has been more than worth it, but I had to get some professional instruction to really pound it home. But, I wouldn't necessarily try to unscrew and rethread a Weaver shooter if he/she didn't like it and didn't WANT to learn it. That's a subject for yet another thread.
    Last edited by sheepdog; January 19th, 2008 at 10:19 AM. Reason: add info
    What Would Gumby Do?

  11. #55
    Member Array RochPersDef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    106
    I'll chime in with my support for the thumbs forward hold. The biggest advantage is that you end up surrounding the grip with hand. The thumb over thumb will create a gap for the pistol to recoil into. If you get into a combative situation with the thumb over hold, you can actually end up with a broken thumb or two. With the forward hold, you are less prone to grabbage (my new term) of your fingers and you can actually fight off the offender. It is also more easily repeatable, reliable, and less diagnostic as a grip. it is also easier to learn and engrain as there is less to figure out.

  12. #56
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    WYOMING
    Posts
    562
    thumbs pointed forward works for two handed shooting, but will not work for one handed shooting.

    square, flat, and one-way downrange shooting is not the real world and in most cases for CCW reaction on the streets is not the real world - 0 to 5 feet over in less than 3 seconds - multi-bad fellars with most in low to no light.

    one handed shooting, both sides should be practiced at least as much as two handed shooting.

    34% - left hand
    33% - right hand
    33% - both hands - practice - precision shot to the head of bad fellar with a hostage covering at least half the of head of the bad fellar, ideal both slow moving targets and -practice - longer distance shots - 25 to 50 yards with both of these practices in different body positions - prone to standing - cover to no cover (all types)

    why not use both hands - vehicle and building doors, people (good and bad), flashlights, close distance to bad fellar, slows time to make the first shot esp CQB

  13. #57
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431

    MY .02

    I’ve become a firm believer in the saying: “It’s a way not the way.” The phrase means there are several acceptable ways to perform a technique, not just one “right” way. This is the first thing I learned at Blackwater as an Instructor. Of course there are wrong ways, but some instructors get hung up on one acceptable method and fail to recognize alternative styles that still accomplish the objective.

    I shoot thumbs forward...I teach Thumbs forward...However I have a very good Instructor on my Staff who is Federal LE. and he never shoots thumbs forward. But he will Teach it!

    What I teach is learn with an open mind you may not have a use for that technique or tactic now but put it in your “Tactical Tool box” one day you may need it.

    However with that said, If you want to learn this method the correct way (I learned from Todd Jarret) then you need to train @ Perroni's Tactical Training Academy - Virginia Firearms Training or http://www.goldensealenterprises.

    Tom Perroni

  14. #58
    Member Array RochPersDef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    106
    Hear, hear!

    I will work with whatever method the student feels comfy with. Like you said, I shoot thumbs forward, I teach thumbs forward - or whatever works for them.

    My way is not the only way, but it works for me and we'll find out what works for you.

  15. #59
    Member Array 1911NM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    306
    6 pages since I put my .02 in, and just had to add one more time. I so appreciate the trainers who are in evidence here stating the thumbs forward, isoceles type grip and stance is just one way. However, speaking from my experience as a long time shooter, and up until a couple years ago, a lousy pistol shot, when I was moved from Weaver to the thumbs forward, etc. by a coach, not only did I become a better shot, but became much more consistant. Those nasty left and low flyers went away as long as I pay attention to a consistent thumbs forward grip, and more squared stance. I am a believer, because it worked for me, and thank a coach who worked with me to make the change. To all the trainers here, you all are incredible, working with us doofus types who sometimes have a brain freeze on the simplest of concepts. My hat's off.
    NRA, USPSA SS & Lim-10
    Blessed are they who, faced with danger, think only of the front sight. J. Cooper

  16. #60
    New Member Array NetDefender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fredericksburg
    Posts
    1

    Just finished an 07e class with Tom

    However with that said, If you want to learn this method the correct way (I learned from Todd Jarret) then you need to train @ Perroni's Tactical Training Academy - Virginia Firearms Training or http://www.goldensealenterprises.

    Tom Perroni


    I just finished a class with Tom. I can say he has made me a believer of the thumbs forward grip. I was a consistent low and left shooter. I learned the method from him and he said "trust me do it this way and your shooting will improve" he continued with "Its only A way not THE way."

    I will say that with the performance I have seen with this grip it is "THE WAY" for me. I have now tried this grip with all of my handguns each with the same outcome. I am now putting my shots into 1.5-2inch group on command. Prior to training with Tom I trained with LE in North Carlina, USMC, and the US Army. Each had their strengths and weaknesses in their approach but the thumbs forward grip had a faster more drastic change in my shooting than all the other training I have had combined.

    I highly recommend that you check out this training. Even you experienced shooters can pickup some useful skills from this excellent training. I congratulate Tom and Golden Seal Enterprises for putting together such a valuable training experience. Basic Handgun / Advanced Handgun.

    Dennis David

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Question on thumbs forward
    By markp in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: March 28th, 2008, 02:25 PM
  2. Thumbs up for Nate/UBG
    By FRT007 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 18th, 2007, 10:11 PM
  3. Thumbs up on new Kahr CW9
    By ks_shooter in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: August 18th, 2007, 04:24 PM
  4. Thumbs up for UBG
    By FRT007 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: July 18th, 2007, 05:58 PM
  5. Thumbs up to Rafters!!!
    By rycher in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: October 3rd, 2006, 04:17 PM

Search tags for this page

1911 thumbs forward

,

beretta 92 thumbs forward

,

beretta 92fs thumb forward grip

,
beretta thumbs forward grip
,

thumb forward grip beretta

,

thumbs crossed vs thumbs forward

,
thumbs forward beretta 92
,

thumbs forward grip advantages

,

thumbs forward or crossed on defence auto pistol

,

thumbs forward or thumbs down

,

thumbs forward pistol grip

,

which is better thumbs forward or down

Click on a term to search for related topics.