Point shooting - Applegate style. - Page 2

Point shooting - Applegate style.

This is a discussion on Point shooting - Applegate style. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Probably the ideal word Ron - is - for each individual - CONSISTENCY. That might include a mix of stance elements, sighting technique etc - ...

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Thread: Point shooting - Applegate style.

  1. #16
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    Probably the ideal word Ron - is - for each individual - CONSISTENCY.

    That might include a mix of stance elements, sighting technique etc - but providing that works for the shooter and can be repeated with effectively no conscious thinking - then under pressure results will or should be maximized.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #17
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    I'd like to add that one of the best way to test this is in a TIMED competition such as IPSC/IDPA. Experiment with where you transition from point to sight shooting. The timer rarely lies in these issues. Oh, and before anyone say it... NO competition is not the "Real World". :)

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Linch
    I'd like to add that one of the best way to test this is in a TIMED competition such as IPSC/IDPA. Experiment with where you transition from point to sight shooting. The timer rarely lies in these issues. Oh, and before anyone say it... NO competition is not the "Real World". :)
    Jim,
    Great suggestion; I use a timer frequently in practice. It is very interesting to see what a timer does to people's groups!

  4. #19
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    Not to get off track, but I also find that shooting steel plates (8") for the majority of my practice has improved my accuracy greatly.

    I know not everyone can do this, but using 3 plates at ranges from 7-15yrds at varies heights is a great way to work on transsitoning between targets, makes you hit a small target (aim small miss small) and gives you instant feedback.

    It's very easy to blaze away on IPSC/IDPA targets because you can't see right away if you're shooting flyers. The steel ringing gives feedback without causing you to do the "ostrich."

  5. #20
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    What Tangle says is right. It works for him. After trying different techniques, he can practice that which is most comfortable and successful, then build on it. Our skills come from a series of building blocks that we assemble with the flexibility to suit our immediate needs. We may need to adapt our techniques to fast changing situations.

    Ideally, we should be able to use the sights if our situational awareness gives us enough time and distance. Movement off the line of force, to cover, to concealment, to confuse, is my #1 priority. I teach movement and draw simultaneously after each has been practiced separately.

    The least difficult case, and perhaps the most commonly encountered, will allow a verbal warning, a two hand isosceles hold, controlled breathing, and sights lined up on COM. This is what we will practice first at 15 yards.

    The most difficult case may be a sudden threat from 3 to 6 feet coming from an angle other than 12 o’clock. This is what we practice next as we incorporate a draw with movement and one handed “point shooting” from close to the body and, if possible, centered with the body. So called “retention” shooting has proved unsatisfactory unless one leans back and to the weak side to improve the wrist angle and aid natural pointing instinct, a time consuming maneuver.

    Finally we practice from each end of the easy-difficult spectrum until we reach the “point or sight” transition from both sides.

    From the least to the most difficult scenario there exists a continuous technique that transitions from point to sighted shooting, as Jim Lynch pointed out. I practice both, knowing that I will use the most effective for the situation. If I have time for a two hand hold, I’ll be looking down both sights as if my life depended on them. If I’m diving for cover as I draw, a one hand hold will be used for a point shot within my range.

    Jelly Bryce once entered a room, saw BG on the couch with a shotgun pointed at him. Bryce moved to dodge the blast as he drew his .357 and point shot to end BG’s carreer.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  6. #21
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    Good Post Gunthorp

    "The most difficult case may be a sudden threat from 3 to 6 feet coming from an angle other than 12 o’clock."

    You are 100% correct on that.
    A person needs to take every avoidance measure possible to protect against a close~up suprise attack & especially from the side or rear.
    I think somebody should probably open up a new thread on that topic. There are very specific types of locations where a person is extra vulnerable to a close in attack. So close & fast that there is almost no real time to react.

  7. #22
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    Thanks QKS. I have developed what I call the 4 quadrant drill for exactly that dreaded situation. In succession, six feet from the 8 1/2 x 11 paper, the student stands facing, 90 deg, 270 deg, and 180 deg. On signal, the draw from concealment ends in a pointed pair.

    In practice, the eyes must identify the target as the off hand clears the cover for a full grip. The muzzle cannot flash as it clears on target. Bending and bowing need to be choreographed for each student with dry fire. The drill ends in a front on stance with a deep breath, a two hand hold, and sights aligned for the third shot to the center of the paper.

    Throughout the drill a 55 gal drum is about 6 feet to the side. In a recap at the end of the session, I will demonstrate the drill by immediately diving for the cover instead of standing out in the open wrestling with my clothes. Gets 'em thinking.
    Last edited by QKShooter; September 24th, 2005 at 09:46 AM. Reason: correct minor typo
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  8. #23
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    I can't help but be intrigued by all this point shooting. Blackwater, Gunsite, and Thunder Ranch teach only sighted shooting, even at arm's length. I know what you're thinking, but no, the BG won't be able to grab your gun - tactics prevent it.

    From what I've seen these three shooting schools maintain close relationships with LE and we know Blackwater also trains contractors. They want to be sure their up to speed with what's working and what isn't.

    When I was at Blackwater, the instructors did some amazing shooting. They were so fast and accurate, I could hardly believe it. They shot every drill before we did, and they were at warp speed every drill. They are full time police officers. I asked they were using their sights; they said "Always." I asked if they ever point shot - they asked if I thought they needed to.

    So anyone that point shoots and would do so in a life threatening confrontation:

    What are the advantages to point shooting over flash sight picture?

    Where did you learn to point shoot?

    Is point shooting coming from competition/fun?

    Has point shooting been proven in the street?

    Have you ever compared your point shooting speed and accuracy against flash sight picture shooting?

    gunthorp if they are six feet away from the threat, do they extend their arms to shoot?

  9. #24
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    Post Point Defensive Shooting

    I practiced instinctive shooting extensively on the land that I once worked on. It was GREAT boredom relief!
    These days I shoot on my own property 60 acres in "Nowheresville, PA." which was property that was formerly owned by the PA Railways
    I shoot & camp alone (or just with my dog) because there is nothing I like more than totally getting away from it all.

    I honestly do not want to defend "instinctive shooting" for the rest of the world or the remainder of the shooting population.
    The rest of the world can either take it or leave it.

    Remember that I normally always carry at the shoulder & that requires special practice on my part to stay "as good and as fast" as more common methods of carry and shoot.

    More later...

    For close~in fast suprise threat encounters I like being able to turn sideways to block with my left arm & come directly out of my Alessi rig (no retention straps) & instantly "take out" a threat from under my blocking arm & even through my outer garment if it's necessary.

    Everything I do is decently unorthodox.
    I actually practice doing odd things like revolver shooting my S&W Centennial through coat pockets. (hint: buy throw away cheap coats at the second store)
    NEAT to be able to hit without even needing to display a firearm or looking like I am holding one.
    I just KNOW that if I ever do actually need to use my defensive firearm that the encouner will likely never normal...or the way I ever expect it to be. So I try to cover lots of bases.
    I just try to envision "Real Life" & different possible scenarios & then I try shooting my way OUT of them.

    I am probably really an Odd Bird in that respect but, shooting never gets boring.

    Once I committed to shoulder carry then it became necessary for me to find my own place to shoot and practice.
    I would class "instinctive shooting" as a valuable but, not mandatory shooting style to know.

    I honestly do not like to call "point shooting" Point Shooting anymore because then some people/shooters confuse it with the point shooting style of pointing with the index finger of the gun hand and actually firing the weapon with the middle or "bird finger" which I DO NOT EVER do.

    Always remember that people in general usually always tend to respond negatively or tend to find absolutely no merit in whatever they personally don't "see or feel" that they themselves have any need for.
    That's a NORMAL human reaction.
    There is no reason for anyone to be totally closed minded about any shooting method or style.
    The old saying is:
    "If it's not your cup of tea then just don't drink it."
    Problem solved.
    Last edited by QKShooter; September 25th, 2005 at 08:59 PM.

  10. #25
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    Three feet away would be retention shooting, very difficult to do well. But at short distance it is fast and effective (no ported barrels for me thanks.) From 6 feet away, the gun will be navel high and about 24" out from the center of the body while crouching. This precludes being disarmed. The crouch is a natural instinct that gives the body a balanced springboard. This is decidedly faster than any aimed shot. From 9 feet we may have time to use a two hand hold at neck height. From 12 - 27 feet, a flash sight picture should be utilized, that is the front sight is anywhere in the rear notch as long as you can barely see it. Past ten yards, or in the hostage situation, the finest sight alignment should be employed as rapidly as possible. It is necessary to concentrate on the front sight. Speed, accuracy, distance, and target size need to be balanced against each other to find the most viable combination to solve a problem. The shotgunner needs to balance velocity with penetration and pattern density when he selects shot size.

    QKS has excellent methods that solve many common scenarios. The best part about them, is that they work in actual shooting drills he has devised and practiced.

    Tangle has well thought out the "so called" point shooting business, and is fast and accurate using the sights. I agree with him and all the good schools out there about using sights.

    That can be very fast. I'm just saying that one cannot use sights from retention, and at very, very close range, facing an armed opponent, I don't want to take the time to raise the gun any more than I have to for my first shot. What says that the second or third shot can't be from two hands at eye level?
    Last edited by gunthorp; September 25th, 2005 at 09:54 PM.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  11. #26
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    Some good comments guys!

    But, things we do that work for us and even others on the range, are often unproven in reality, like the street. It concerns me that we are developing self defense shooting and tactics on the range with non-moving, non-attacking, and non-shooting targets, that are usually squared off to us.

    I can make just about everything work on the range, but when I try them at a training school, and they don't work so well - and that's not even the street. But at training schools we at least get to experience moving targets, rotating targets, charging targets, etc.

    I am curious about this, and this is in reference to when you have a choice between point shooting and sighted shooting:

    Is point shooting as accurate as sighted shooting?

    Is point shooting faster than sighted shooting?

    Have you determined that point shooting works better for casual shooters than sight shooting?

    Do you use a timer to measure shot and response times?

  12. #27
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    Is point shooting as accurate as sighted shooting?
    No

    Is point shooting faster than sighted shooting?
    It's faster, but the trade off is accuracy at the "break over" range. That range varies with each person.

    Have you determined that point shooting works better for casual shooters than sight shooting?
    No. I only teach sighted shooting. Point shooting does not need to be taught, it comes naturally when sights are not available.

    Do you use a timer to measure shot and response times?
    Not for some time, but I did at first. A timer AND shot scoring for the overall picture. "You can't miss fast enough!"

  13. #28
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    I can make just about everything work on the range, but when I try them at a training school, and they don't work so well - and that's not even the street. But at training schools we at least get to experience moving targets, rotating targets, charging targets, etc.

    I think the current trend to be "realistic" with Airsoft and Simms is good, but I find people starting to believe the hyp that THIS is what it will be like in a gun fight.

    Airsoft do not shoot through soft cover like interior walls, they do not allow gun jams under fire, they do not produce accurate recoil or smoke, etc...

    The more I go to classes and read and practice all the latest fads (SUL, Point shooting, QK, retention shooting, knife to gun, gun to knife, etc.) the more I think it boils down to...

    are you ready?
    .
    .
    .
    PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE!

    I'd rather be a guy who knew little of all the cool tactical tricks and could draw and fire accurately into a 6" target (3-5) rounds in <3 sec at ranges out to 25yrds than the latest tactical ninja with all his shooting school diplomas.

    I'm not saying all the current stuff is not cool, nor pertinent. I am saying that most people I meet at schools are lousy shots when pressed for speed.

    It's like bad shooting COPs...

    Most Master/Grand Master IPSC shooters will never go to a Thunder Ranch, and most Thunder Ranch guys will never be as fast as that "gamer."

    I've only met a few who are in the middle and shoot accurately and quickly CONSISTENTLY, and they are the ones I aspire to be like.

  14. #29
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    The thread has covered some very useful ground and Jim's last offering - ''practice, practice, practice,'' is IMO at the heart of it.

    Ultimately for each and every one of us - to beat the old cherry - is ''what works'' - I firmly believe that. Within this is inevitably compromize re speed vs accuracy - we have to find our own combination that works under pressure.

    I know from past experience and practice conditions I am slow compared to many - but this is because I take that smidgeon longer for the gaining of accuracy. It might be my downfall if I have a fast opponent but my first shot has to be a good one if at all possible - rather than ''gettin' it on'' such that first four go wild and maybe #5 is a hit.

    As for ''point'' shooting - using the term broadly - I would expect to be doing this without thinking if, there was no other option and range was very short. So again practice is paramount in all methods.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  15. #30
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    Jim,

    Regarding your remarks in the posts immediately above, that's my thoughts as well.

    As for,
    "No. I only teach sighted shooting. Point shooting does not need to be taught, it comes naturally when sights are not available."

    I have found to be true for me. I point shoot well, though seldom. At first I thought that point shooting skill attained via sighted shooting was stance/positional related but now I see indications that there is much more to it than that.

    Also, if we need to shoot at 3 feet ranges, it seems to me, our best option is to make distance, shooting as we move using sights, rather remaining in close proximity and continuing to fire.

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