Back from Training

Back from Training

This is a discussion on Back from Training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just got back from monthly training with my Employer. We had several guest instructors, one of which a 17 year LEO and adjunct instructor at ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array HadjiKlr74's Avatar
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    Post Back from Training

    Just got back from monthly training with my Employer. We had several guest instructors, one of which a 17 year LEO and adjunct instructor at the Smith & Wesson Academy. I am getting ready to do it all over again end of this month, when I go up to Camden, TN to attend High risk Civilian Contractor, Shooter Package with Tactical Response and crazy Chuck Yeager. This is my 3rd time up there--I absolutely love that facility!

    I brought several things from this last training I wanted to share with the Board. One of the primary themes of the training was multiple target scenarios. As Mike pointed out, this not only applies to my line of work, but to the armed civilian as well, with the increasing gang crimes, it is likely to be appraoched by several no-gooders at once.

    Highlights:

    *Move to Cover
    *Shield your Gun Hand
    *Make Lateral Moves
    *Tangle the bad guys in Cross Fire
    *Shoot the closest thug to you FIRST
    *Shoot the Attackers on your GUN Side next
    *Shoot each adversary once and move to the next

    "Getting off the X" or moving out of the kill zone was drilled on alot and if you do not do so now, I urge you in your drills, to always incorporate a lateral sidestep after recognition of the threat or whenever there is "lag time" such as reloads or clearing malfunctions. In a Multiple threat scenario, moving laterally uses the suspects positions against them and places them in each others line of fire. This provides you with temporary cover, forcing the perp to take a better position and giving you the edge--you have now forced them to react to you (OODA Loop 101)

    Another point was always protecting your gun hand, an example given was:

    "If you are a right handed shooter facing 3 perps and you start shooting from left to right, you leave your gun side exposed way too long to the perp to your right. In this case, Improve the odds and shoot right to left."

    Basically, always shoot the attacker closest to you and if right handed, always start from the right.

    We also drilled on weak hand shooting, the most neglected drill among most shooters.

    Next time you head to the range, think about this seriously. Place targets at varying distances from you and each other--As you move to protect your Gun Side, see what angles afford themselves to you--and which ones present the best to make a Combat Effective hit on the target.

    Stay Safe.
    NRA Life Member
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    "Get yourself a GLOCK and lose that nickel plated Sissy Pistol."-US Marshalls


  2. #2
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Interesting concepts.
    *Tangle the bad guys in Cross Fire
    I would have to see this to understand it. The notion that gang members care about cross fire in the first place is a bit silly considering their stereotypical muzzle discipline.

    *Shoot the closest thug to you FIRST
    Odd, I was always taught to shoot the greatest threat first.

    This provides you with temporary cover, forcing the perp to take a better position and giving you the edge--you have now forced them to react to you (OODA Loop 101).
    Ah, the fallacy of OODA Loop 101, the notion that your reaction to the threat is the first step in the OODA Loop cycle. It isn't. It is often billed as a way to attain a tactical advantage because the bad guys must then react to YOU. What folks who teach this fail to note is that you lost tactical advantage when YOU reacted to the threat. The also fail to note that ones the threat reacts, by their own description, you have lost the advantage because you have to reaction to their reaction,...and so on.

    The OODA Loop concept is a descriptive theory on how decisions to act are made, not a fighting tactic. Because it is cyclical, as I noted, every reaction both means you are behind the curve and ahead of it. Ironic, no?



    "Getting off the X" or moving out of the kill zone was drilled on alot and if you do not do so now, I urge you in your drills, to always incorporate a lateral sidestep after recognition of the threat or whenever there is "lag time" such as reloads or clearing malfunctions. In a Multiple threat scenario, moving laterally uses the suspects positions against them and places them in each others line of fire. This provides you with temporary cover, forcing the perp to take a better position and giving you the edge--you have now forced them to react to you (OODA Loop 101)
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  3. #3
    Member Array austin's Avatar
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    Exploding off the X to the 1 or 11 oclock of the BG and putting as many rounds into them as quickly as you can is the next step in this training evolution.

  4. #4
    New Member Array HadjiKlr74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Interesting concepts.

    I would have to see this to understand it. The notion that gang members care about cross fire in the first place is a bit silly considering their stereotypical muzzle discipline.


    Odd, I was always taught to shoot the greatest threat first.



    Ah, the fallacy of OODA Loop 101, the notion that your reaction to the threat is the first step in the OODA Loop cycle. It isn't. It is often billed as a way to attain a tactical advantage because the bad guys must then react to YOU. What folks who teach this fail to note is that you lost tactical advantage when YOU reacted to the threat. The also fail to note that ones the threat reacts, by their own description, you have lost the advantage because you have to reaction to their reaction,...and so on.

    The OODA Loop concept is a descriptive theory on how decisions to act are made, not a fighting tactic. Because it is cyclical, as I noted, every reaction both means you are behind the curve and ahead of it. Ironic, no?



    "Getting off the X" or moving out of the kill zone was drilled on alot and if you do not do so now, I urge you in your drills, to always incorporate a lateral sidestep after recognition of the threat or whenever there is "lag time" such as reloads or clearing malfunctions. In a Multiple threat scenario, moving laterally uses the suspects positions against them and places them in each others line of fire. This provides you with temporary cover, forcing the perp to take a better position and giving you the edge--you have now forced them to react to you (OODA Loop 101)

    Describing training is always a difficult task--Seeing it in action makes much more sense. Maybe you can come down & train with me and my detail.

    The basis of all the training was movement off the LOA--this can create any number of dynamics when Multiple threats are involved.

    As I work in Personal Protection/Executive Security, the ideal of crossfire may be a alien concept to some civilians--it is however a real concept, even among muzzle discipline dummies like Gangs. the ideal presented was simple: Move to put each of your adversaries in their own line of fire. If you play basketball, you could call it a "pick".

    As for shooting the most dangerous threat first--In High level Executive Protection Security training, the threat that is closest to you OR YOUR PRINCIPLE IS SHOT FIRST--PERIOD. Reactionary Gap 101--surely you know that one right?

    I can assure you all of the training I have received is not thought up by armchair warriors-but by the frontline guys--Current Spec-Ops Military, LEO, SWAT, etc.
    NRA Life Member
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    "Get yourself a GLOCK and lose that nickel plated Sissy Pistol."-US Marshalls

  5. #5
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    I can assure you all of the training I have received is not thought up by armchair warriors-but by the frontline guys--Current Spec-Ops Military, LEO, SWAT, etc.
    Mine too.

    Chuck Yeager or James Yeager of Tactical Response? James has been off the front line for a while after that disasterous ambush event in Iraq as I recall.

    As for shooting the most dangerous threat first--In High level Executive Protection Security training, the threat that is closest to you OR YOUR PRINCIPLE IS SHOT FIRST--PERIOD. Reactionary Gap 101--surely you know that one right?
    In civilian self defense, the threat that is closest isn't necessarily your first shot.

    And yes, I know what a reactionary gap is, only it was called a reaction gap when I received my instruction. Why do you add "101" to these terms?

    Just curious, if you are to shoot the closest thug to you, PERIOD as you said, what do you do if you don't have a shot on the closest thug? Are you not allowed to address other threats to you or your client until which time you have the opportunity to address the closest threat? The closest threat is not always the most immediate threat and isn't always the greatest threat.

    It is always an interesting read when folks come back from classes full of vinegar and speaking in absolutes and loaded with terminology.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  6. #6
    New Member Array 45cal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HadjiKlr74 View Post
    the ideal presented was simple: Move to put each of your adversaries in their own line of fire. If you play basketball, you could call it a "pick".
    I am just curious how to you move someone to be in their own line of fire? It must involve twisting their gun to point it at them, am I correct?

    Why shoot each one once? What if shooting them once doesn't stop the threat? what if shooting them twice doesn't stop the threat?

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mike Rayburn of the S&W Academy is an excellent instructor with a long history in as much and high risk & street engagement work.

    My next course coming up in a few weeks over at S&W Academy will be featuring Rayburn titled 'Instinctive Point Shooting' (Shooting Sports Center, Springfield Massachusetts | Smith & Wesson) and it will feature instruction/practice toward many of the points detailed by HK74.
    After that I have 'Combat Shotgun' scheduled toward him in the summer.

    I'll remember to come back here and detail what was covered as an adjunct to this thread.
    For those unable to get over to S&W Academy he has developed several highly regarded books and DVDsaround his course work which can be found at his site; Welcome to Rayburn Law Enforcement Training

    As to "shooting the closest thug to you first" I agree with this position and in my own experience of fighting with attackers on the streets this method not only works but is what one learns to do toward survival and it matters not if the BG is armed or not. Always engage the closest and thus highest threat potential person first. Even if a secondary is armed and the closest is not, you take the closest out of the fight first because he/she can negate you from your 3,10, or 6 as you are focused on the armed and perceived highest order threat. Only now you literally have to fight off a monkey on your back and/or strong/armed arm and hand. Things collapse quickly at that point FTL.
    If the attacker closest to you is no in the clear and/or is blocked then clearly that person is not then closest to your person as per the blockage.

    Anyway again I'll remember to post here when my own course of instruction is complete toward similar same by the same instructor.
    Mike also holds a knife combat and defense course that I may choose to participate in as well toward LEO defense against disarmament. All of these courses are civilian/CCW applicable.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HadjiKlr74 View Post
    As I work in Personal Protection/Executive Security...
    Are you WPPS? If so, we may run into each other soon...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Update:

    I spent the entire day with Rayburn on Sunday in a small 8 person (7 men and 1 woman) class which was very much hands on toward 'Instinctive Point Shooting'.

    I walked away with a purchased copy of his book 'Combat Gunfighting' (which he told me is the _exact_ same word for word as 'Basic Gunfighting 101' only he decided to retitle it)...and knowledge to shoot with accuracy out to 30' with first, second, third, and mag dump combat accuracy and quickness.
    Yet another class and level of information that anyone civilian who carries on the street should have in their toolbox.
    I'll go so far as to say, and I know this will be heretical, that point shooting is more relevant to a civilian on the street or at home than is aimed sights aligned right fire.
    That is my _own_ opinion as developed from seeing myself with a little initial coaching and explanation of concept place rounds in man sized then reduced down to 9" pie plate sized targets (CoM and face) with zero outliers. Fist sized groupings.
    I will be taking his second level class when it comes around next fall.

    Two thumbs up to the course and Rayburn like other instructors spoke less so much with a cop or 'operator' style as his emphasis was more so of a hey man look this is what happens on the streets as we know from actual shootings and cataloged results...
    That for me is what is most relevant. I don't care about what is tacti-cool or is IDPA applicable (one person in class was there for such wrongly thinking it would help to that end). I just want to be as highly effective and efficient as I myself can be (I will never be Ernie Langdon or Todd Jarret and have no imaginations of such), so as to reduce my chances of getting got _or_ accidentally winging the wrong person such as an innocent whilst in the process of defending myself.
    Rayburn's class was about what really happens to the shooter in mindset and physicality in the real world while working around ones natural reactions and tendencies which he terms to be "instinctive".

    Additionally Rayburn will be running a combat shotgun course which was rescheduled from last winter. I'll be doing that too.

    $0.02

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #10
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Are you WPPS? If so, we may run into each other soon...
    OPFOR

    Are you DSS?


    Tom Perroni

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