Federal Training?!

This is a discussion on Federal Training?! within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Is there anyone that knows what any federal agency (ATF,DEA,ICE) needs to train towards when it comes to handgun training? Was just wondering if anyone ...

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Thread: Federal Training?!

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Daniella's Avatar
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    Federal Training?!

    Is there anyone that knows what any federal agency (ATF,DEA,ICE)
    needs to train towards when it comes to handgun training?

    Was just wondering if anyone had any links so i can have something to train towards..

    thanks

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Supposedly this is what FAM guidelines are:

    The Gun Zone -- Federal Air Marshal Firearms Qualification Course
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    It sucks that 37 is the cut off age.
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  5. #4
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supertac45 View Post
    It sucks that 37 is the cut off age.
    LEO's can get an exemption. For example, let's say you're 45 but you've been a cop for 8 years... 45 - 8 = 37.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    LEO's can get an exemption. For example, let's say you're 45 but you've been a cop for 8 years... 45 - 8 = 37.
    Matiki,
    This is NOT a carry over from the "Did I do the right thing thread...". However, being a prior law enforcement officer is not an exemption to the 37 age limit. It has to do with the mandatory 57 retirement age for persons covered under federal law enforcement retirement (commonly referred to as "6c"). You MUST retire at 57 and you MUST have a minimum of 20 years of service to get law enforcement retirement. That is where the max 37 age limit for entry comes from. The only exemptions come from a executive waiver and it is generally done agency wide. For instance, Air Marshals did (and I believe still do) have a waiver for up to 40 years of age. I believe that Border Patrol is operating under the same +3 waiver right now as well as the US Secret Service Uniformed Division. But it has nothing to do with prior law enforcement experience. The only way prior law enforcement helps you out with the age issue is if that experience was as a 6c covered federal law enforcement officer.

    Keep in mind that not all federal law enforcement is covered under 6c, which means there are several agencies that do not require retirement at 57 (therefore no 37 entry age limit). In my opinion, the biggest problem the 37/57 presents is it keeps you from drawing from an incredibly talented, experienced, and well trained work force...the military. Guys retire from the military with 20 years and they are often 1 year to old to enter covered federal law enforcement. That sucks and works against an effective system. It really needs to be changed.
    Gonzo
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniella View Post
    Is there anyone that knows what any federal agency (ATF,DEA,ICE)
    needs to train towards when it comes to handgun training?

    Was just wondering if anyone had any links so i can have something to train towards..

    thanks
    Daniella,
    Each agency has different qualification requirements and courses. In fact, most even use a different target. Very few federal agencies post their firearms qual courses for public consumption. You might find one or two, like the FAM course, that are floating in cyberspace. Generally speaking, federal firearms qualifying courses are very similar to those used by local and state agencies. And most federal agencies (but not all) qualify on a quarterly basis. I know of at least two that require montly qualifications.
    Gonzo
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    I know what a few are in detail, but I'm also wondering why she wants to know.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Member Array CelticWarrior13's Avatar
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    The Great Gonzo knows of what he speaks (he knows me from another spot if he recalls it - though I haven't been there for a long, long time! Hope you're doing well Gonzo! Still where you were?)

    By the way...unless they've rechanged it as Gonzo pointed out, you can go to work as a F.A.M. as long as you're appointed before your 40th birthday. (after 9/11/2001 they raised the age limit for C.A.S.S. to 40) (I wasn't aware of the U.S.B.P. and U.S.S.S./U.D. raising theirs but I can see it, especially the Border Patrol...but for me that's too old to be going through FLETC and running around the desert S.W.)

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    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Matiki,
    This is NOT a carry over from the "Did I do the right thing thread...". ...
    Thanks Gonzo, I stand corrected. I must have filled in the blanks from a conversation with a FAM with some faulty information.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Thanks Gonzo, I stand corrected. I must have filled in the blanks from a conversation with a FAM with some faulty information.
    It's those 3 martini lunches that are confusing you. It really is a flawed system. There are a lot of outstanding candidates, particularly retired military, who are 38 when they enter the law enforcement job market. As a result, federal law enforcement misses out on them and they get gobbled up by local and state agencies. A truly senseless loss for the feds (but a nice gain for the state and local agencies).
    Gonzo
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    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I know what a few are in detail, but I'm also wondering why she wants to know.

    Looks like her last line hints toward being some kind of LEO.
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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    It's those 3 martini lunches that are confusing you.
    If only I were so lucky.

    It really is a flawed system. There are a lot of outstanding candidates, particularly retired military, who are 38 when they enter the law enforcement job market. As a result, federal law enforcement misses out on them and they get gobbled up by local and state agencies. A truly senseless loss for the feds (but a nice gain for the state and local agencies).
    Gonzo
    I agree... its too bad but just as well. Most of the Federal jobs don't seem to compensate well anyways.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    Member Array CelticWarrior13's Avatar
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    Most of the Federal jobs don't seem to compensate well anyways
    Don't neccesarily let entry level pay influence your decision. As you rise up the GS scale you make good, decent to really good money (a buddy of mine retired from one agency making very good pay and was handed his credentials in the other hand for another agency...making a substantial increase as basically a contract employee) Plus, depending on what agency you work for you get differentials (and what some would call overtime...but it's paid in lieu of OT as they presume the hours will be worked...and if you work over, oh well!)

    I will say that the retirement from what I understand has gone downhill...sadly.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticWarrior13 View Post
    Don't neccesarily let entry level pay influence your decision. As you rise up the GS scale you make good, decent to really good money (a buddy of mine retired from one agency making very good pay and was handed his credentials in the other hand for another agency...making a substantial increase as basically a contract employee) Plus, depending on what agency you work for you get differentials (and what some would call overtime...but it's paid in lieu of OT as they presume the hours will be worked...and if you work over, oh well!)

    I will say that the retirement from what I understand has gone downhill...sadly.
    I suspect I was overly broad in my statement. Geographic location probably affects this. In Seattle, even with the differential (and the assumption that one would rise in the ranks), the compensation is poor compared to SPD or any of the Eastside agencies. On the other hand, I suspect compensation in the midwest, south or anywhere else that the cost of living is less might be quite good in comparison.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    FLETC is responsible for providing training to some 80-90 odd federal programs, most of which have armed personnel, most of whom begin their training preparing for FLETC's basic course of fire, the Practical Pistol Course (PPC).

    The PPC is a 60 round course of fire. FLETC requires shooters to achieve a minimum score of 210; some agencies require shooters to acheive minimum scores of 225 or 240.

    Note: Many agencies, and even programs within agencies, have their own courses of fire. Some are taught in lieu of the PPC, some in addition. All are similar in that they serve to test, verify, and document the basic skill sets expected of the shooters. Most are 50-60 round courses of fire from the 1.5 or 3 yard line to the 25 yard line. They are courses of fire the majority of shooters, to include those with no prior firearms experience, can and do pass.

    I'll dig around and try to find the PPC course of fire.

    And... to prepare for any of them work on:

    Your basic marksmanship and pistol manipulation skills. Being able to hit with you intent to, when you intend to, and to be able to clear any malfunctions along the way will put you ahead of the power curve. There are many federal LEOs who are very, very skilled, you just don't have to be when you show up at the Academy gates.

    If you're a Modern Technique/ Weaver shooter... work on your modern isosceles stance.
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