Always glad to read your drivel, SixBravo!
Sound like you had one heck of a time - definitely something I'll need to look into when we move to AZ.
This is a discussion on ITFT / Quick Kill Review within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the spirit of the Gunsite Blog, I'll give a brief rundown on what my experience was this weekend and my run through Robin "Brownie" ...
In the spirit of the Gunsite Blog, I'll give a brief rundown on what my experience was this weekend and my run through Robin "Brownie" Brown's Integrated Threat Focused Training / Quick Kill class. For a little reference, my experience may be largely different from others because myself, and a few others camped-out at the site with Brownie. So we got a little more of the experience. And that's NOT a bad thing.
Starting the Class:
Firearm: HK USP .40 Compact
Ammunition: 2050 rounds (Half were reloads)
Mags: Four Standard HK Ten-Round Magazines
Before going much further into this, I'll say it right now: This is *not* a class that's about lightning-quick tactical reloads, fancy breathing techniques or taught by the latest greatest shooter who can put every round through the same molecule at 200 yards with a .22 snubbie. This course is about different shooting positions and ideas as to how to survive a gunfight. This is a no-frills or fufu course that gets into the meat of streetable techniques. No classroom, minimum BS, you will learn by watching and then doing. Throughout the days, Brownie is enthusiastic and keeps the energy up so when you're about ready to keel over, you STILL want more.
Going through the first day, we started at 9am and except for a few small breaks and lunch - we were on the firing line all day. If we weren't shooting, we were discussing the different applications of one technique and talking the merits of using it versus a different one. It sounds bad to say this, but off the top of my head I cannot remember everything I was taught.
Is it because some of it was stupid and worth forgetting? Ha!! No way. I'm just tired and between bathes of aloe right now so things are hazy.
But getting back to it, it doesn't matter that I cannot remember all of the details right now. Brownie packs a LOT into two days. He teaches a lot of things that once you have the basics of, its all refining the art (and really - it is!) to what suits you best. You can go onto his forum and get a rundown of what was covered in the class and INSTANTLY everything comes back. These skillsets are things that he opens the doors to you on and its just up to you to step through and practice back home and on the range. Well... private range. Most ranges don't take kindly to rapid fire or half the stuff you learn.
Much as I scribbled in the Gunsite Blog, I'm not going to give away any details or try and describe how to do that. If Brownie wants to post it up on his forum, he can do it. But I wouldn't be able to do it justice anyway. Really, and to be dead honest, this stuff needs to be seen to be fully appreciated (if not believed). When I got there Friday night, him and Mike were telling me I'd be able to rapid-fire every round into a torso from +21' in under 2 seconds by Saturday afternoon. I chuckled. What do you say to that??? I still didn't know the next afternoon when I did it on my second try! But I'll tell you, I was grinning like an idiot.
Sunday rolls around and we cover a lot of review from the previous day. Basic stuff to the class and Core skills. Once thats loaded into our minds we moved off into running drills/sprints. I'll be dead honest, I have NEVER seen or heard of a more stable or accurate firing technique for shooting on the move. Some of the other skills he shows, and we even got some demo and practice on handgun disarms, are nuts.
After the shooting was done today, we sat down and had a discussion about what was learned. It was pointed-out that Quick Kill, while is a GREAT technique, it is not the end-all be-all for every situation. It was an honest talk that reinforced the idea that every shooter needs to learn what works best for them and think about what will work best for whatever situation they might be placed in. It was never directly said, but that was the topic. And while that seems like a trivial thing to mention - it speaks volumes to the quality of the instruction. Some may disagree and live by a certain mantra that says there is only one correct way for each person. Fine. No problem. Stay over there. In a community with flashed names and big name schools, Brownie's course is refreshing.
Really, I would say that this course is an absolute must-take for anyone serious about self defense. You will blow yourself away with what you learn and how easy some of it is. For the skillset Brownie teaches, for the cost that he charges, it is hands-down worth it. Better than Gunsite? I'd say yes. But its two different set-ups and comparing them gets tough. Both teach good skillsets but I would say that QK and the associated techniques are much more likely to be used. No joke, one of the guys who came (forum member - TacticalCompact) brought his wife. From what I understand, she's not an experienced shooter by any stretch. She came in and just.. WOW!! I was totally impressed but not 100% shocked. Its so intuitive. Really... the gun becomes an extension of your hand.
Oh.. by the way.. did I mention that I saw my gun in focus exactly once while on the line ALL weekend. Once. Sights? Yeah, right. And no, I'm not joking. I'm being quite literal! Once. That was it.
Brownie, guys: I stand by what I said at the roundtable afterwards. 9 out of 10. I will be taking this course again and more of your offerings before I consider heading back to Gunsite or ANY other big name school.
Total Rounds Fired: 1150
Number of Cleaning Sessions: 0
The HK ran flawlessly. This gun never complains or gripes or hiccups when its shoved through the most intensive firing sessions. It was cleaned beforehand and all I did was lube slightly Sunday morning. I *highly* recommend bringing a serious gun to this class. If your firearm has very tight tolerances and may not stand-up to sustained high temps, you should probably bring something else. Or if they have a rep of breaking a certain part - bring spares.
I brought 2050 rounds. Why didn't I shoot much more than half? Damndest thing... I kept having to reload. Four mags, while it might get you through the class, is NOT enough. One guy, Eli, had a bunch of hi-caps for his Glock and he was havin' a good ol' time. You need a minimum of five 10-rounders. I'd suggest six or seven hi-caps. Just me, though.
My suggestions to those thinking of taking this class:
-Bring gloves or tape for your fingers. Especially if you shoot something larger than 9mm. Bring it for the 9mm if you have soft hands.
-Bring your shotgun, lots of ammo, and plenty of clays. Seeing Brownie hit the bits 'n pieces of what you thought you decimated will make you cry. And like it.
-Take the class ASAP.
Hopefully the other guys who took this can chime in and voice their thoughts. Maybe help me organize mine. This was a little scattered.
Sgt443, TacComp, Daddy (when you join)... VERY fine shooting. Especially you, Sgt. Very impressive all weekend. Even through your slide. It truly was a pleasure to take that class with you all.
Man, I was so close to being able to take this course when it was here in Florida but I just couldnt afford it. I will definitely have to save for this one and make it my vacation this year if it comes close enough to me again.
"Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis
First I'd like to thank you for attending the ITFTS training event in Flagstaff this last weekend, secondly for your thoughts here on the training provided to those who may one day need to defend themselves with a handgun.
It sounds bad to say this, but off the top of my head I cannot remember everything I was taught.
Some of the 14 seperate skills which were presented and covered in two days were:
elbow up/elbow down [ Fairbairn/Sykes 1/2 hip ]
Fairbairn/Sykes 3/4 hip [ eye/hand coordination skills to shoot where you are looking ]
F/S point shoulder [ eye/hand coordination skills to shoot where you are looking at greater distances ]
zipper [ shooting from the hip to full extension as soon as the gun is drawn from the holster putting 4-5 rds on threat before you reached full extension ]
bump [ body and head shots from the hip ]
Quick Kill from the hip [ more than one threat with the elbow placed in the "pocket" in front of the hip ]
Quick Kill [ peripheral vision shooting skills ] from 5 yrds out to 70 yrds ]
shooting an immediate threat behind you without moving your feet or turning to face the threat and then the same skill with movement to get out of the kill zone while continuing to fire rapidly [ you'll remember this one as "winding up, and the "unwinding" with movement ].
High compressed ready
"Sprint and hits" [ exploding out of the kill zone left and right one handed to the weak side, two handed to the strong side ]
Flat out running laterally to the threat while firing from both the strong side and weak side. [ I'll be dead honest, I have NEVER seen or heard of a more stable or accurate firing technique for shooting on the move.] Quick Kill gets your focus on the threat, not the gun. Do you remember the analogy of walking with the full cup of coffee and why threat focused skills such as Quick Kill allow you to smooth out the guns movement while running?
"Enhanced Peripheral Vision" [ two guns fired simultaneously on two threats 6 feet apart [ one gun in each hand ] without looking at either threat from about 8 feet out ] This skill gets the students to advance the idea of further expanding/developing the use of your peripheral vision. Enhanced Peripheral Vision © - Threat Focused Forums
Everyone got to shoot my sightless 45 govt model with the Quick Kill skills. My "Sightless" 45 used for training purposes - Threat Focused Forums
Saturday nights shoot off with the shotguns after I showed everyone the rifle Quick Kill with the bb gun was a blast. Your considerable skills with that pistol gripped shotty on ariels was a real treat for me personally. I'd never have imagined it was possible with the hit %'s you were having if I hadn't seen it myself. Very, very nice sir.
I hope everyone picked up some good ideas on the gun disarming side of SD situations in Sunday afternoons demonstrations/exercises. Most people make disarms too complicated which adversely affects a successful outcome here. You should now understand that if you can touch the gun, you can take it away without being shot.
Your review brought up a few points that I'd like to address while we're at it here:
Some schools spend a lot of time on handhold, trigger control issues. If you'll remember, I was able to adjust a few students handhold/trigger finger control on the fly while they were shooting which increased their hits exponentially immediately.
Another big time consumer in some schools is their idea of a "proper" or safe draw stroke. I briefly touched on the "scoop" draw I use, but there was no training time spent in attempting to correct anyones draw stroke in anyway. I find that most students quickly develop their draw stroke in the ITFTS courses without much intervention/corrective measures.
If you remember, I asked the students to go full speed on the command to fire from the holster in the afternoon the first day, and everyone was at or under a one second draw stroke to first shot on threat. Your mind and body are capable of determining how to get the gun out in the fastest possible manner without spending valuable training time on someone else's idea of a "correct" draw stroke.
Not one student came close to dropping their firearm when asked to go full tilt from the holster to shots on threat without effort/time spent advocating one draw stroke method over another. I prefer to challenge/push the students in speed and find students quickly figure out the fastest way to execute the skill from their holster with their own unique body structure.
Again, I thank you for your input and thoughts on the training I provide relative real world self defense skills which will increase the chances of surviving a potential lethal encounter with a sidearm/handgun based on the "time/distance" equation presented on the streets.
Looking forward to training with you again in the future. We had a great weekend in Flagstaff. It's personally rewarding to watch students arrive with varying degrees of gun handling skills easily picking up the skills presented in the ITFTS course of fire in such a short time. It goes without saying that if you can replicate the skills presented almost immediately that the skills take advantage of ones own natural ability.
As you mentioned, ITFTS opens doors to using ones natural eye/hand coordination and physical abilities we all generally possess.
Last edited by AzQkr; June 3rd, 2008 at 04:31 PM.
thanks for the review
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
Couldn't have said it better myself. This class is exactly what I've been looking for, and money well spent. Talk about wanting more, my wife was in the backyard today with my airsoft beretta 92 practicing her QK skills :)This is a no-frills or fufu course that gets into the meat of streetable techniques. No classroom, minimum BS, you will learn by watching and then doing. Throughout the days, Brownie is enthusiastic and keeps the energy up so when you're about ready to keel over, you STILL want more.+1 I haven't been so tired, beat-up, sore, sun-burned, and wished I could go back for more EVER!!! This was a tough couple of days because I irresponsibly neglected to cover myself in sunscreen. However, I found it hard to leave even at the end of the day when I was frustrated and burnt out from looking from the striker guide rod I'd lost from my Kahr while cleaning it. I just wanted to stay!I'm just tired and between bathes of aloe right now so things are hazyI'll vouch for that!!!But I'll tell you, I was grinning like an idiot.Simply amazing. I tried to run that Glock on the steel plates using my sights. I got maybe 4 hits from a mag of 15. While using the QK methods I got maybe 4 misses from a full mag!!!I have NEVER seen or heard of a more stable or accurate firing technique for shooting on the move.
This is something everyone should take if you want to win should you find yourself in a gunfight. Videos soon to come :D
I wanted to also mention that I was able to hit the lid of a 55 gallon drum from 50+ yards using a Springfield 1911 .45 with NO SIGHTS. WITH ONE SHOT THE FIRST TRY. I dare you to do that with your sights.
Here is a video of Sgt443 demonstrating his QK skills:
And another video of my wife first, then me, shooting some steel plates without looking at our guns:
It should be noted that my wife had shot a total of about 50-75 rounds through her new MK9 before taking this class. It should also be noted that the misses in these videos would not be misses at all on paper or a real target. Watching my wife, it looked that her misses would have been headshots! Hard to say for sure, but by the looks of the paper targets after a similar drill, I believe it. Anyway, we came away feeling very good about this. No 2" groups at 200 yards, no. But in a gun fight, I want enough holes in enough different organs to STOP whatever threat I find looming.
Last edited by TacticalCompact; June 3rd, 2008 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Adding video
Thanks for throwing those vids up of Sgt443 and you and your wife on the range.
I think you might have a video of your wife on the silhouette targets moving laterally as well. Both of you are doing just fine threat focused on the plates. Those plates are a -1 score on an IDPA target.
Sgt443, well, what more needs to be said------great runs all weekend sir.
Thanks Brownie. This was a good class and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I found the material was presented well, and in a logical progression. Anyone contemplating taking the class can be assured they will leave with confidence in more than a few skill sets.
Also I enjoyed the company of everyone that attended.
Those Vids are amazing!!!!!
I hope to be able to take one of Brownies classes one day.
A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.
We're working on getting the ITFTS course into your area in the future.
Some of the other skills he shows, and we even got some demo and practice on handgun disarms, are nuts.
Here's a vid clip of myself with a gun pointed at my head back in 2003. The disarming skills shown in the Flagstaff class last weekend were just extra curricular to the ITFTS program, but I may start to include them regularly at the end of the second days training if people want to learn them.
YouTube - Gun disarming---Next victim please-----
Ok, I must know how to look in to this class. I have tried searching and Google only turns up many posts from other forums such as this telling how valuable the class was.
Where can one go to look in to it and find out how much to ask the Wife for so I can go?
I appreciate your current interest in the Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems [ ITFTS ] course of fire.
ITFTS has it's own forum where a lot of information can be gleaned relative the cost of our courses as well as private instruction from 1-3 days depending on what the students objectives are here in the Sonoran Desert of Az. with myself.
See the web address under my sigline here for more information. If you have further specific questions, you may reach me through arizonaqkr "at" yahoo dot com, through pm here or our site.
Thanks again for your questions
Ah, then I briefly saw that, I was looking for a web site or something, so I have what I need then. Now I just gotta wrangle some cash away and this elusive thing called vacation time I keep hearing about.
I look forward to some day taking this class, the videos are awesome.
Love the videos, Jesse! Thanks for posting those.
Brownie, thanks for the repost of all the skills. Been practicing hard the last few days. It really does get more and more natural with each session. I just need to get me some of those steel plates!!! haha
Yeah, I'm gonna have a welder friend of mine make me some of those plates, but I think I might make them with heads (lol). Now I just need to get me some Glocks and some 33 round mags ahahahaha