Chris Fry and Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts

Chris Fry and Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts

This is a discussion on Chris Fry and Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; November 5th Fighting With Firearms/Combative Carbine In this 4 hr Workshop PFC Instructor Chris Fry will present basic operating skills universal* to carbine and/or pistol. ...

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Thread: Chris Fry and Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    Chris Fry and Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts

    November 5th Fighting With Firearms/Combative Carbine

    In this 4 hr Workshop PFC Instructor Chris Fry will present basic operating skills universal* to carbine and/or pistol. All skills will be presented and drilled to include: basic marksmanship and manipulations, administrative gun handling, ready positions, combative shooting positions, shooting responses, bilateral weapon operation and more...

    This training event is open to law enforcement, military, security personnel, correctional officers, martial artists, and responsible citizens. Beginners to Advanced practitioners of all systems and styles from all backgrounds are welcome.

    WHEN:
    12-4PM - time changed due to daylight savings

    WHERE:
    Otisco Lake Rod & Gun Club
    Skaneatles, NY

    HOW MUCH:
    $45 Pre-register
    $35 Law Enforcement/Military
    $55 Day of event

    CONTACT:
    Marc Hutcheon: SP10@ar15.com
    Or
    Chris Fry: chrisf@centrexlabs.com

    EQUIPMENT:
    Carbine
    Minimum 2 extra magazines
    Magazine Pouches/ Load Bearing Vest
    Sling
    Weapon mounted light if you have one

    Pistol
    2 extra magazines
    Strong side holster
    Magazine Pouches

    300rnds Carbine Ammunition
    100rnds Pistol Ammunition

    Eye and Ear Protection

    *All skills presented in this workshop are applicable to carbine or pistol weapon systems. If you do not own a carbine come train these skill sets with your personal or department issue side arm.
    _________________
    Chris Fry
    www.mdtstraining.com
    www.pfctraining.com
    www.fastdefenseprograms.com
    I'll be writing up a full review, but thought I'd offer some first impressions. I spent my Saturday in the company of Chris Fry and his assistant(s) in order to attend and participate in this Combative Carbine class.

    This was a very professionally conducted seminar, very informative, and most certainly not for beginners -- anyone walking into this without at least basic skills in running a carbine or handgun would have felt more than a little overwhelmed. (I do get the impression, though, that a complete beginner would have enjoyed the class and that Chris would have given that person any instruction they required.)

    Chris is an excellent trainer. He was consistent, approachable, friendly, and kept things moving. His martial arts background was evident in some of his body mechanics and even in a few of the things he said -- though I don't know how obvious this would be to someone who did not have the good fortune to have had at least a little of the same training, as I saw echoes of my Kung Fu/FMA/JKD training here and there.

    Most everyone there was running AR15s, some of them sporting a wild assortment of gear and supporting vests and rigs. One fellow had an AK (complete with barrel-clamp-Brinkman MaxFire flashlight!), one fellow had a Ruger Mini 14 (at least I think it was a 14 and not a 30), and one fellow even had a Beretta Storm (which seemed to give him quite a few problems -- worth considering for anyone contemplating the Storm).

    I ran, for the whole class (expending something like 300-400 rounds), a Hi Point 9mm carbine with a magazine carrier on the buttstock and two extra mags stuck in the pockets of my 5.11 vest. Would you believe that ugly cheap gun worked and worked and kept on working, giving me no problems? I had one malfunction -- ironically, during a failure to fire drill! -- when the last round in the magazine didn't strip out of the mag and got stuck in it, leaving me with nothing to do but change out the almost empty magazine. The rest of the time that Hi Point just kept chowing down on Winchester White Box with nary a complaint. I don't think the barrel got completely cool for, like, two and a half hours, as during that time it never had the chance to go unused for long enough to manage it.

    We ran through basic self-defense responses and some alternative responses, aggressive firing stances (built off the isosceles for you handgun folk -- knees bent, feet shoulder width apart, rump back, thrusting the carbine forward into the shooting. We worked snapping up the carbine from different ready postions (including a Diamond Postion that is Position Sul to some of you), transitions and firing with the support hand (never called the "weak" hand by Chris), some parallels to handgun use (though none of us actually switched to handgun, we could have). I'm leaving some stuff out -- there was a lot packed into the four hours and I'm now surprisingly sore. A few hours like this will teach you where all the rough eges are on a given gun -- and teach you to appreciate magazine loaders.

    It was neat to see 15 other people in real life all more or less on the same page. Everyone had clip-equipped tactical knives; Chris had a Shivworks Disciple and a KaBar TDI and something else clipped to his pocket. Glocks and 1911s abounded as far as sidearms went.

    Those folks, like me, who had no sling quickly learned that we wanted one. Those folks who had two- and even three-point slings quickly learned that a single-point sling is really the only way to go if you don't want the sling getting in your way during transitions and manipulations.

    There's something almost awe-inspiring about standing amidst seven other people, all of them shooting rifles and carbines around you, as the pressure waves and smoke roll over you like rain.

    I will gladly sign up for more training with Chris when I have the chance. I am eager to take some of his force-on-force and empty hand combatives courses, too. He's a nice and knowledgeable guy who conducted a class that ranks among the best I've attended. I've had the good fortune to see a lot of training, directly or indirectly through contributors to The Martialist. This was spot-on, easily competitive with the big names in the industry.

    I'll have a complete write-up and pictures later.


  2. #2
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    Well, that was in itself a pretty extensive write-up. Sounds good and something I think I could enjoy.

    If I were younger and more spare cash I would consider it.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    It's an extremely inexpensive class, compared to others of its type -- and all age ranges were represented. You wouldn't be at all "too old" to go, my friend. :)

  4. #4
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    Know what - the other disuader? Can't carry!!

    I have gotten so staid in my ways now that even if something outa state really appeals - I just feel less and less prepared to have to disarm! Stubborn, I know!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    Your intrepid correspondent in-between training modules.


    Students on the line.


    Chris demonstrating prior to a module.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    On December 10th, I spent another pleasant Saturday in the company of Chris Fry, his assistant(s), and his students. This coursed was "300-400 level" material, including weapon retention and deployment while fighting off a gun grab, Extreme Close Quarters (ECQ) shooting, one-handed shooting with both strong and support hands, space maintenance and verbal warnings, and basic combatives (the edge of hand blow and the hammer fist).

    Chris was as professional, engaging, and safety-conscious as the first time I went through a class with him (the aforementioned carbine class, of course). He is very vigilant on the line -- and so are his students, as everyone assembled does a pretty good job of looking out for anything that should not be happening on a hot range. When he corrects, that is all he does -- corrects, without scolding the student but without downplaying the need for proper live fire procedures.

    We started the class with a run-down of firearms safety, range rules locally, and the material to be covered in the class. Then, indoors, we got to work up a sweat (easier than you might think in temperatures just over 30 degrees) with some weapon-retention-and-deployment drills. Blue guns and holsters were distributed to each pair of students (we had 10 to 12 people participating in the four-hour class at any given moment). Then students took turns trying to grab the pistols from the holsters or otherwise remove it from the control of their partners.

    We went full-out -- I was probably a little more zealous than I should have been -- and I was impressed with everyone's aggression. My own partner was a younger fellow named Don who was much smaller than me. He made up for this disadvantage in sheer ruthlessness; he was a real animal. We both succeeded in wrenching the pistol away from the other person a few times in the course of the exercise. The point of which was to drop your head, drive forward, and counter the incoming limb(s) while drawing and "shooting" from the "number 2" draw position -- a close quarters position in which gun is drawn with the elbow high and weapon close against the body, angled downward.

    At one point I lifted Don completely off the ground and practically shook him like an angry bear, but he managed to keep his weapon. He was a great sport about the whole thing. Chris has a very solid core group of students from diverse backgrounds.

    After all this fun we went out and did some close quarters shooting, much of it from only a couple feet away from the targets. Using various guard positions (support hand blocking over the head, horizontal or "flying" elbow with the support hand against the neck area) we shoot from that "number 2" draw position, resulting in tightly grouped shots in the "assailant's" lower left quadrant (the target's "pelvis"). We also shot from the "number 3" position (both hands on the gun, elbows tight against the body, with the gun against the chest and with the gun at full extension (an isosceles stance, knees bent, body angled forward aggressively, just like the carbine class stance).

    We did a number of exercises, such as shooting from the "number 3" position and then shooting from full extension, or side-stepping to shoot an adjacent target at full extension after shooting up close, or shooting several times while extending the weapon (or while retracting it).

    The close quarters shooting is something that must be disturbing to everyone the first time. Feeling the muzzle blast below your face and close to your body is so alien compared to a traditional sporting range experience... I actually felt afraid a few times, worrying I might screw up and shoot myself in the arm or foot, or that one of the other students shooting close to me on the line might make a mistake.

    This, of course, does not happen, in part because Chris and his assistant(s) do such a good job of supervising things, and in part because their influence demands you be alert and "on" the entire time you are on or near that firing line. Another student expressed the same sentiment, however -- that feeling of accomplishment when you're all done and nobody's hurt, coupled with that initial anxiety over the close quarters shooting.

    Some of you may be thinking this close quarters shooting sounds familiar -- and those that do have watched SouthNarc's close quarters shooting DVD. ;)

    After shooting from so close we did some shooting from perhaps five yards back, one handed, preferably with the support hand against the chest. We were no longer shooting man-shaped targets; instead we were shooting small circles set five to a target, placing one round in each circle (ideally). From that distance, one-handed, I was able to put one round in each circle except for a flier (this happened in more than one group) -- until we switched to the support hand. At that point my marxmanship went to absolute crap and I vowed to do more practice with my left hand, unsupported.

    I mentioned the cold temperatures before. We were standing outside on the range in the snow and the temperature was somewhere just above 30 degrees (F) for the duration. I bought a new pair of Wolverine boots knowing this would be the case. I also wore my Orlon watch cap, a scarf, and my flight jacket, coupled with the unlined leather "police" gloves I prefer. I was completely comfortable the entire time, had no trouble manipulating the Glock 19 I was shooting, and never once felt the need to go inside or otherwise flee the conditions.

    The slash pockets of my flight jacket also carried several spare magazines for the Glock. After seeing just how much ammo we burned through so quickly at the carbine class, I came loaded for bear with eight magazines and five hundred rounds of Winchester 115 grain FMJ ammunition. I wore the Fobus magazine pouches and holster that I prefer for this type of range work (though I admit it is cheating to use a chintzy holster and mag holder combo that I'd never wear for real-life concealed carry; it makes life in the relays easier but that's not a god excuse). I even managed to burn all the way through my ammo during one long relay.

    In just over two hours I shot between 200 and 300 rounds, which the Glock digested without malfunction and without complaint. The nice thing about that Glock is that I never once worried about cold temperatures or moisture giving it problems, either. The added benefit was that I didn't have to monkey about manipulating external safety levers during the exercises (in which weapons were safed prior to each drill) as did some of the other shooters.

    When the shooting was done, we went back inside and gamed out some basic combatives -- getting the hands up in a modified "fence" stance, verbalizing warnings (Chris emphasized using profanity as the only way to make a street predator really take notice of your verbal caution), drop-stepping into edge-of-hand blows and hammer fists, and practicing the blows on air shields. We did a little striking with a magazine (which could as easily have been a flashlight, pocket stick, or other blunt tool) and I managed to take one directly on the top of my hand while I was holding the shield for one portion of the exercise. It hurt.

    We concluded class by getting everyone's individual impressions. I enjoyed this class immensely; it was a very productive use of my Saturday. I learned some new things, got to practice needed skills in a safe and supervised environment, got more practice dealing with shooting under pressure, and had a blast running hundreds of rounds through a Glock. Who could want more out of a weekend afternoon?

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