November 7th, 2005 04:49 AM
Tactical vs. Competition
I've been thinking about doing this for my website for a while, but will have to wait until Spring to get footage for the clips.
Basically I want to film how to do common procedures that would be useful in a defensive shooting situation in the proper "tactical" method and then show a clip of actual competitors at the local IDPA / IPSC matches and how they do it.
My first idea was to show what "slicing the pie" should look like and what is being done in competitions. I made the following clip at home while bored one night using my airsoft gun, but will get some live footage this Spring by using a remote camera I have at the next IDPA and IPSC matches I go to.
In competition we are running against the clock and KNOW where the BG's are so we tend to run around corners and expose ourselves because the targets can't shoot back and we KNOW where they are anyway. Since "blind" stages are so rare, we are constantly reinforcing this bad behavior.
In the clip I have here, the last two shootings are after I have ran and made a mag change from the other side of the house. After reviewing the first attempt, I even tried to limit the exposure more, but as you can see it's way too easy to go past the point of "safety" unless you approach and slice slowly.
I'd be interested to hear any pet peeve issues that competition trains us for failure if you have them. It will give me some ideas of which to film next. I have a feeling that when competitors at the matches see how exposed they really are during a course of fire, it will be an eye opener. For the IDPA guys at least. The IPSC guys could care less about cover. LOL
Tactical Cornering .mov (Quicktime required) 1.3MB
PS. If you can guess the composer in the background you get extra points. :)
November 7th, 2005 10:04 AM
Safety and the unexpected can go hand in hand...
Well it's usually a safety issue. My club often runs "blind" stages and we usually run night shoots requiring a hand held flashlight (no mounted lights) and you can't borrow somebody elses light! Also, on the night shoots, the shooter rearranges the targets and no shoots for the next person and then exits to an area where there is no consorting with those who've not yet run the course.
Originally Posted by oregonshooter
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
November 7th, 2005 10:18 AM
But that's not by IDPA rules right? Do they do blind stages at the big matches for time?
Let me rephrase that.
We do a lot of things in our IDPA club that are not by the rules, but the things I want to point out are tactical errors that the rules MAKE you do.
For instance, having to leave cover to secure a mag that has dropped to the ground before a "tactical reload" is considered complete. We had a stage last month that required me to do a tactical reload upon reaching a Bianchi Wall even though I ran dry on the move and shoot targets between box A and box B (the wall).
Another shooter on the same stage fumbled his reload and the mag fell out in front of the wall. He had to go out from cover to secure that mag instead of using another off his belt because it would be a procedural for not securing the mag during a tactical reload.
That's the kind of stuff I want to illustrate on video. Bad training habits developed by clock or rules that are too stringent.
PS. Not trying to get an IDPA bashing thread going here, just clarifying my intent.
Can anyone think of similar rules/examples of competition affecting sound tactics?
November 7th, 2005 01:47 PM
There are I think quite a number of discrepancies between ''real'' and compo - tho the speed aspect of compo is in itself I think a useful training aid. beyond that tho there is scope for much ''bad habit'' induction, if we let some things become too memoried.
Biggest single thing I think of is - the total difference between use of cover when taking incoming as against none at all! Then too the way we change mags whereby in IDPA we may be more concerned about avoiding proceedurals than actuall ''under fire'' necessities.
One of the most challenging sections I have shot is ''the house'' - no prior knowledge of where the shoot and no-shoots are - even layout not fully known. These make for extreme difficulty even with no return fire and do prove useful IMO - maybe more than ''normal'' stages. Closer maybe to ''thinking on your feet''.
We do a night shoot each year - pretty much like Ex described - this year we even allowed laser grips - a very valuable excercize if only because it required a different approach.
I daresay the only realistic tactical training can come from simmunition use - as IIRC Tangle has experienced. That is simply because things are goin' to be so different with incoming fire. Whole new ballgame and one where mistakes quickly show up - maybe painfully!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
November 7th, 2005 04:59 PM
IDPA and USPSA ARE GAMES did I say IDPA AND USPSA ARE GAMES it is not Tactics.
If you want Tactics get Tactical Training or Force on Force.
November 7th, 2005 07:36 PM
Yes they are games. No I have no illusion that they are tactical training.
Now here is the meat of the question...
1. Who here believes they will fight like they train?
2. Who here believes that the mind does not know the difference between "mental rehersal" and actual?
3. Who here believes that people have died with empty brass in their pockets because they policed it on the range everytime they shot?
4. Who here believes that they can practice all the gun manipulation and speed increasing drills that shooting sports offer WITHOUT participating in shooting sports?
5. Who here STILL believes that competition is just a game that does not present a REAL threat to your chances of survival in a gun fight EVEN though we know it's a game?
And the question that's being asked here...
Now having said that, I want to ask you something Pat. Do you sport shoot?
How many people think about the consequences of ingraining sport shooting habits into their "muscle memory?"
November 7th, 2005 07:50 PM
I consider the biggest diffrence between shooting sports and tactical training to be the hardware. Most action shooting use specialized guns , weaker loads and optics. I do not want to ingrain these competition habits into my muscle memory, therefore do not participate.
November 7th, 2005 07:55 PM
I shoot with my carry rig so the hardware stays the same, but the software that I use for tactics is not allowed in IDPA, most is in IPSC, but no cover is designed into stages.
I love competiton, but I'm starting to think I should put it aside for the reasons you stated.
November 7th, 2005 07:59 PM
yep, as mentioned before , cops found dead with a handful of empty cartridges, cause of how they trained on the range. The mind goes into trained reaction mode during stressful times.
November 7th, 2005 08:59 PM
My solution is to use my carry gun, holster, and cover garment that I wear every day.
Originally Posted by rocky
My gun is a bone stock Kimber, holster is a VersaMax II, and cover garment is whatever I happen to wear to the range that day.
The only differences for me is the earmuffs, eye protection, and factory 230gr FMJ loads versus the 230gr Gold Dots that I carry.
I ain't winning the matches, but I'm having a good time and at the end of the day I am better off than if I had sat home and watched the tube.
Good luck. :)
NRA Life Member
Northwest Florida Defensive Pistol Shooters Member
November 7th, 2005 09:26 PM
I shoot both IDPA AND USPSA,I am the Match Director of the FWCDPC.
Originally Posted by oregonshooter
All shooting will make you a better gun handler,just don't try to make the gun games real self defense training.
November 8th, 2005 12:35 AM
I observed one IDPA match when I considered joining. I did not join for a couple reasons. I do not enjoy timed scoring. I know it's part of the "game" part, but I hate being timed. I'm just not a competitive person.
I also went through this silly mindset of wanting to bring my CZ75c, which would give me a high magazine capacity in easy-to-shoot 9mm, hopefully improving my "score" - even though I said I wasn't competitive. (Maybe it had something to do with the snickering I heard in the background from a couple morons when the lone female IDPA member didn't do very well.) Maybe I felt like I had to prove myself, like I was supposed to make holes-in-one. The problem was the CZ wasn't my carry gun. It would be practical to take it to the match, but not practical for real-life if I'm trying to keep myself familiar with my carry pieces.
And that's the thing. I'd do IDPA or IPSC for fun, but that's not what I was looking for.
IDPA and IPSC have their place. They can be a load of fun just for fun's sake. I can also see how they can improve reaction time, reloading time, and help make a person's gun use second-nature. I don't think a person is going to stay in "sport mode" when he's in "life and death mode" and ask "what's my time" when the dust settles. He can effectively use what he has learned and practiced, because he has that to fall back on in a crisis. But if a person consistently practices something incorrectly, like not properly using cover, he may utilize that bad habit when it really hits the fan. But that's not IDPA's or IPSC's fault. As Pat said, don't substitute gun games for real self-defense training.
And that's where tactical shooting schools come into the picture.
Last edited by Betty; November 8th, 2005 at 08:47 AM.
Reason: correcting a typo.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
November 8th, 2005 02:24 AM
Police Officer deaths have shown this to be the case. Thus the "you will fight as you have trained" motto.
Originally Posted by Betty
I don't think I'm getting my point across to Pat. You can look at the shooting sports as "just games" all you want, but by playing them you are going to ingrain certain habits that will increase your chances of being killed by doing so. Regardless if you look at them as fun or are deceived into thinking they are tactics.
They are great for gun handling skills, but most of those you can learn with dry fire.
You can shoot the matches as tactically as possible also, but there are certain practices that can not be done in the shooting sports. Moving offline on the draw comes to mind in both IDPA & IPSC. A lot of stages (most classifiers) require you to stay in a box in the open as another example.
Anyway, I'm not here to convince you (Pat) or anyone else not to shoot the sports, I'm just saying "think about the big picture" if you EDC and are not just a gamer. Most of the guys that shoot IPSC would not have a gun with them in a gunfight anyway as they do not carry everyday. It's like bowling or any other sport to them.
Oh, and I was hoping someone would add examples of sport shooting methods that are not tactically sound. :)
What ya think about shooting on the move? Is it better to run full out and take your misses on the way to cover, or run to cover without firing then return fire, or to do the "gunwalk" and place accurate hits on target with increased exposure to self?
November 8th, 2005 07:23 AM
This topic has been beat to death on every gun board on the internet.
Originally Posted by oregonshooter
Most CCW SHOOTINGS will be in your face down and dirty with the bad guy already ahead of you on the curve.
Are you going to hit, kick, get him away from you and retreat till you can draw your wepon or if you are a games guy like me start slicing the pie.Get real!
Don't not enjoy the gun games because it might cause you to fight as you train.Most of us are never going to get to that level
November 8th, 2005 07:54 AM
What level is that? I had a hard time understanding your sentence.
PS. Is there a gun handling topic that has NOT been beat to death? Sometimes an open mind will reveal something not seen before, that is why they continue to be discussed.
If you don't want to discuss it then don't.
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