A Case For Point Shooting.

This is a discussion on A Case For Point Shooting. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is from an article in the latest issue of The Edge, which is the official publication of the National Tactical Officers Association. Which, btw, ...

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Thread: A Case For Point Shooting.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    A Case For Point Shooting.

    This is from an article in the latest issue of The Edge, which is the official publication of the National Tactical Officers Association.
    Which, btw, is very much anti point shooting.
    The scene is in South Africa in 1996, where a family man is parking his car at home when he is attacked by six gun toting thugs.
    "Without warning he (the BG standing in front of his car) fired a shot at me. I felt no sign of impact to my body: I didn't even know that the slug hit me squarely in the middle of my chest. But my subconscious did, because it instantly sent gallons of adrenaline into my system, turning me into a stumbling zombie.
    I pulled my own revolver and tried to take cover behind a concrete pillar of the carport and fired off my first round in the direction of the attacker...
    ...The main attacker was still taking cover at the back of the car, less than two meters from me, and he kept firing at me.
    He was constantly changing his position, never standing still.
    It was almost impossible for me to correctly aim and shoot. I have been trained to shoot with both hands, but I recall that I fired one handed during this incident.....
    ..Then, without warning, the attackers turned tail and fled. As quickly as it started, so ended the first phase of my struggle for survival."
    OK..lots of lessons here, but I will allow everyone to draw their own conclusions from this incident.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Whatever works for them ,But at distances of 6 feet or less I don't need to line up my front sight post in my rear sight to put rounds rapid fire COM
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    no conculsions, just glad your here
    today to tell your story.
    hopefully you woun't have any
    more visitors like that again.
    anyway good luck to you
    and stay safe out there.

    ooppss. sorry it's early, still on first cup
    of java. i misread story.(thought it was
    about you).hope everything goes good
    for the man in s. africa.(time for more
    coffee)
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.

  5. #4
    Ex Member Array jmsstnr's Avatar
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    I'd like to read the whole story...is there a link? I have more questions than conclusions (I have none of those). Having taken a course involving the vehicle and its constraints, my curiosity is peaked.

    Thanks

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed, link please to read the whole story for full context.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    No link...it is from a magazine.

  8. #7
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Yeah, the lack of information is an ongoing problem in multiple threads on this matter...A Case For Point Shooting. - THR

    A Case For Point Shooting. - TheFiringLine Forums
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  9. #8
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    Array QKShooter's Avatar
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    Every defensive scenario will always be different from every other but that pretty much captured what you can expect from the unexpected when and if it happens.
    Thanks for posting.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    NTOA || National Tactical Officers Association
    The article is in the Summer 2008 edition of this organization's magazine, THE EDGE.
    Sorry guys, but this is the best I can do.

  11. #10
    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    My wife is a sight shooter, Leatham got her locked in on always using sight picture. I went through "Quick Kill" in the Army many years ago and developed into a body line up and point your finger point shooter at 25 yds and less ranges. If you get into a real gunfight and are moving to cover/better angle/out of BG's aim, a little point shooting my save your life. At 25yds moving at a fast pace at 90* to target, firearm at mid-chest, I can keep them all in the silhouette and most pie plate COM. I can use sights but practise "point" for about half of my weekly shoots. Wife still says I need to use sights, she puts them all through the same hole, I tell her you want more holes, more bleed out/damage, lol.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 173ABN View Post
    My wife is a sight shooter, Leatham got her locked in on always using sight picture. I went through "Quick Kill" in the Army many years ago and developed into a body line up and point your finger point shooter at 25 yds and less ranges. If you get into a real gunfight and are moving to cover/better angle/out of BG's aim, a little point shooting my save your life. At 25yds moving at a fast pace at 90* to target, firearm at mid-chest, I can keep them all in the silhouette and most pie plate COM. I can use sights but practise "point" for about half of my weekly shoots. Wife still says I need to use sights, she puts them all through the same hole, I tell her you want more holes, more bleed out/damage, lol.
    Right on.
    A classic example of the competition mindset ( Leatham/wife) Vs. the combat mindset ( yourself)

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    Yeah, the lack of information is an ongoing problem in multiple threads on this matter.

    By his own account,

    he failed miserably at situational awareness initially: common mistake which starts many of these recountings on the streets

    he didn't respond immediately to their sudden presence on his turf: common mistake

    he pulled a gun and sent the first round in a hail mary downrange in their direction: common response in panic mode

    he suffered the physiological affects of stress which diminished his abilities to defend himself properly: very common

    the original attacker kept moving which created problems for him to use the sights effectively from about 6 feet: common mistake made by too many at that distance due to improper/lack of realistic training

    had been trained to shoot two handed but found himself shooting one handed: common mistake in not training one handed skills

    Thats a lot of information to derive several hypothesis' from. Just from the information related by the defender above, we can see that:

    situational awareness is important to avoid moving into such situations

    You need to act immediately and prepare to defend yourself when confronted

    You need to be able to concentrate on the BG/s and put rds on them without looking at the gun at those distances instead of attempting to find your sights

    You need to train to be able to shoot at moving threats while you yourself are moving if possible

    You need to keep your wits about you and not panic keeping the body alarm response in check as much as possible

    You should be training one handed more often than not

    You should be training to shoot one handed from no particular stance

    Clearly he made many mistakes.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    Ex Member Array jmsstnr's Avatar
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    I have not found the article within the referenced database, but that is a great link! I'll find it and find what I'm looking for, thank you MT.

    The questions I have surrounding the incident in mention, are more focused on fighting from within and around a vehicle. For me, point shooting is a necessity, not something I frown upon or dismiss at the slight of a type. The point shooting v sighted fire argument is dead for me.

    I was curious if the individual in question was in the vehicle, belted, where was the gun, what kind of vehicle, what sort of person was this (lacked some training in significant areas), besides the person who was a target and did not realize it! Curiosity on my part for recently completing AVOPS.

    AzQKR, excellent critique, thank you.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmsstnr View Post
    I have not found the article within the referenced database, but that is a great link! I'll find it and find what I'm looking for, thank you MT.

    The questions I have surrounding the incident in mention, are more focused on fighting from within and around a vehicle. For me, point shooting is a necessity, not something I frown upon or dismiss at the slight of a type. The point shooting v sighted fire argument is dead for me.

    I was curious if the individual in question was in the vehicle, belted, where was the gun, what kind of vehicle, what sort of person was this (lacked some training in significant areas), besides the person who was a target and did not realize it! Curiosity on my part for recently completing AVOPS.

    AzQKR, excellent critique, thank you.
    Roger that.

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